Parenting With ADHD: CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM of PERINATAL WELLBEING ONTARIO

VIKKI: 00:00:03

Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life.

VIKKI: 00:00:07

But for many mums and dads, it can be the hardest and at

VIKKI: 00:00:12

times the darkest of places.

VIKKI: 00:00:16

Welcome to Season 2 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone

VIKKI: 00:00:20

struggling with parenting.

VIKKI: 00:00:23

All the stories shared here are from the heart.

VIKKI: 00:00:26

These are real conversations and may be triggering, so

VIKKI: 00:00:29

please listen with discretion.

VIKKI: 00:00:32

We will also signpost you to help in the show notes.

VIKKI: 00:00:35

Thank you.

VIKKI: 00:00:37

This episode was recorded during the spring of 2022.

VIKKI: 00:00:44

Today's guest is Christine Cunningham, founder and director at Perinatal

VIKKI: 00:00:48

Wellbeing Ontario in Canada.

VIKKI: 00:00:51

Christine also works as a perinatal mental health therapist in private practice.

VIKKI: 00:00:57

She hosts a weekly podcast, Perinatal Wellbeing, where she interviews

VIKKI: 00:01:01

guests around all things perinatal mental health and wellbeing.

VIKKI: 00:01:06

Christine lives with her husband, three boys and two dogs in Ontario.

VIKKI: 00:01:11

She suffered with postpartum anxiety and depression after her third son was born.

VIKKI: 00:01:16

Luckily, she was able to recover and be well again with medication and therapy.

VIKKI: 00:01:21

Christine was also diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 40, which has been very helpful

VIKKI: 00:01:27

in explaining many of her struggles in her day-to-day life, as well as in parenting.

VIKKI: 00:01:32

That experience changed Christine's life for the better.

VIKKI: 00:01:36

She returned to school and trained to become a perinatal counsellor and

VIKKI: 00:01:40

she also set up her not-for-profit Perinatal Wellbeing Ontario.

VIKKI: 00:01:45

Just one thing to apologise to listeners, we are recording over

VIKKI: 00:01:48

Zoom, over the Atlantic Ocean.

VIKKI: 00:01:50

So, there may be sort of bits of dropout, so apologies for that but

VIKKI: 00:01:54

it's the only way I can get the amazing Christine on my podcast at the moment.

VIKKI: 00:01:58

So,

VIKKI: 00:02:00

Hi Christine.

VIKKI: 00:02:01

Welcome to Blue MumDays.

VIKKI: 00:02:02

Thank you so much for joining us today.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:02:05

Hi, Vikki.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:02:06

Thank you so much for having me on the podcast.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:02:08

I'm so excited.

VIKKI: 00:02:10

Likewise.

VIKKI: 00:02:11

I'm a huge fan of your podcast, and I'll make sure I put links in the show notes.

VIKKI: 00:02:15

You talk so eloquently, not only about your own experience, but actually

VIKKI: 00:02:20

interviewing guests, covering everything from ectopic pregnancies to intrusive

VIKKI: 00:02:25

thoughts, which is a really common factor in in perinatal mental health.

VIKKI: 00:02:30

But I'm particularly interested to talk to you today about your experience in

VIKKI: 00:02:35

terms of getting an ADHD diagnosis and how that sort of impacted on how you

VIKKI: 00:02:41

felt about the experiences you'd had.

VIKKI: 00:02:44

But before we get started, can you just tell us a little bit about

VIKKI: 00:02:47

your background, what you were like before you had children- how it was

VIKKI: 00:02:52

with the first two sons and then how it changed with your third boy?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:02:56

Absolutely.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:02:57

So before I had kids I was young and carefree and.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:03:02

No, I'm just kidding!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:03:03

But before I had kids, um, it's interesting because

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:03:07

looking back, I can see now how anxiety was present in my life.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:03:13

And I noticed that a lot when people do seek support for postnatal anxiety, where

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:03:20

we'll kind of do some looking back and they'll say the same thing: "anxiety's

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:03:25

always been present", but then when we have it in the postpartum period, it seems

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:03:29

like it's too much, it's too overwhelming.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:03:33

Or maybe we get to this point where we can't manage anymore.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:03:37

So I definitely notice that for myself, um, I did not know, I didn't

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:03:44

even have ADHD on the radar until about 33 when my oldest was diagnosed.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:03:52

And so I would always just say, "Oh, he's so much like me.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:03:54

He's so much like me."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:03:56

And then he got his diagnosis and the psychiatrist is like, "Well, he

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:04:00

either got it from you or his dad."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:04:02

And I'm like, "well, he definitely didn't get it from his dad".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:04:05

His dad is very like, calm and cool and collected.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:04:08

And so I started looking back and so definitely in hindsight, I can see before

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:04:16

having kids, how it was affecting my life.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:04:19

However, interestingly enough with my pregnancies I was very 'chill'.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:04:26

And I thought I would be, not 'chill', because I always thought, oh my gosh,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:04:33

like "I'm such a baby with pain", or, you know, "I complain a lot".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:04:38

Like I feel every somatic experience that I have, which

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:04:43

I now know is common in ADHD.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:04:45

I think because we're so hyper aware of our own bodily sensations,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:04:51

our own emotions, so we just notice those things a lot more.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:04:57

But in pregnancy I was like "Okay, I got this.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:02

It's all good".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:04

And in labor and delivery I was very calm, which I was not expecting at all.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:13

So that really surprised me.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:15

And I loved being pregnant.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:17

I loved labouring and delivering, you know, if I could have 10 babies,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:23

and give them away to people who would like them, or, you know, surrogacy.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:28

I thought of that.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:29

I would love to do that.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:30

But anyways, I loved giving birth, which again, can sound

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:35

weird, but that was my experience.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:37

And, um, interestingly enough, lower levels of oestrogen can

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:45

exacerbate our symptoms of ADHD.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:48

And so in pregnancy we have high levels of oestrogen.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:52

And so now I'm wondering, is that why I felt so chill?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:05:57

Because I had high levels of oestrogen There was a resident

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:02

when I had my first baby.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:04

And 'cause they didn't believe that I was ready to push so

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:06

they didn't call my doctor.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:08

So my doctor got there just as he was delivered.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:11

So they had to get a resident from the ER who had never delivered a baby.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:16

And you could tell she was terrified.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:19

I am ready to push.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:21

Like I'm in the moment and I say to her, "It's okay, we can do this together".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:26

And she's looking at the nurse like, "Can I do this?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:28

I'm like, "You can do it because you don't have a choice.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:32

I have to do this.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:33

You do too."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:35

And I was like, totally chill, totally calm.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:37

It was all good.

VIKKI: 00:06:38

Oh my God.

VIKKI: 00:06:39

I mean, when you're at your most vulnerable and then you feel like

VIKKI: 00:06:43

you're putting your life in their hands and your child's life in their hands.

VIKKI: 00:06:47

For them to just go like "first day at the job!"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:51

Yeah.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:52

Yeah.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:53

Yeah.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:06:54

So, and I think if it, it wasn't like pregnancy and delivery again, where maybe

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:00

there was high levels of oestrogen which helped, any other circumstance I probably

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:04

would've been freaking out, you know?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:06

So anyways, that was interesting.

VIKKI: 00:07:08

It's amazing when you talk about "Oh, my husband's so

VIKKI: 00:07:11

different to me, he's so chill".

VIKKI: 00:07:13

And yet the way you present yourself on your podcast and just

VIKKI: 00:07:17

chatting to you, you know, for a few minutes now, you seem so Zen!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:21

Wow.

VIKKI: 00:07:22

You know, I, I'm feeling soothed just listening to you talk, So

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:26

Wow.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:26

Thank you.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:27

That's a big compliment.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:28

Yeah, it's interesting.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:30

I think it just depends on the situation.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:33

Again, if I feel like "I've got this, it's okay", then let's just go with the flow.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:39

Whereas in situations where, you know, maybe I am out of my depth or

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:44

I don't know what I'm doing, that's definitely where I can be more like

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:49

super anxious or doubting myself.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:52

And so that was really interesting to me with my first two I didn't

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:07:56

doubt myself as a parent, which I know again, sounds probably really strange.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:08:03

But I was like, "I know I'm gonna make mistakes".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:08:07

I was making mistakes, of course I was, I didn't know what I was doing.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:08:10

But I always knew, like deep down in my heart, in my core, that

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:08:15

"I'm the best mum for my boys."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:08:18

I knew that without a doubt.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:08:20

What was interesting after having and experiencing postnatal anxiety

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:08:25

with my third was that doubt came in you know, that intense guilt.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:08:32

Of course the mum guilt was there, you know, before, but not to this intensity.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:08:37

And that was the first time where I doubted myself as a mum.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:08:41

You know, I, I had all those intrusive thoughts of not being a good enough mom.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:08:44

And so, um, that is a big piece that I notice was different with my first

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:08:50

two than with after having my third.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:08:52

And that's something that has stuck with me, that I still carry,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:08:56

where sometimes I'm like, "Oh, I don't know what I'm doing here."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:09:01

But not in a chill way.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:09:03

More like, "Oh God, what do I do?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:09:06

I can't do this."

VIKKI: 00:09:07

And is that just with your third, or is it generally as a mum now?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:09:13

Yeah.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:09:13

And it's generally as a mum now with all of them.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:09:16

And now that I have a teenager, well, I have a teenager.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:09:20

The second one is gonna be a teenager in a month.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:09:23

So, um, yeah, room

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:09:26

for

VIKKI: 00:09:26

My goodness.

VIKKI: 00:09:27

you do not look old enough to be a mum of a teenager, but that, that's

VIKKI: 00:09:32

a whole nother world I'm dreading.

VIKKI: 00:09:34

I'm beginning to sense Stanley being slightly less into cuddles now and if

VIKKI: 00:09:41

I sort of go to give him a kiss, I'm presented with the top of his head.

VIKKI: 00:09:44

It's like the head is thrust.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:09:47

Yes, yes.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:09:48

Or I go in for a hug and I get like my middle one just, he

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:09:52

lets me hug him from behind.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:09:54

"Okay, thanks."

VIKKI: 00:09:58

Yeah, yeah.

VIKKI: 00:09:59

yeah.

VIKKI: 00:10:00

Oh God.

VIKKI: 00:10:01

We'll have to do a whole separate podcast in a couple of years on that!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:04

Exactly.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:06

Um, it's interesting too, I did have the baby blues with my first but that

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:12

was really that textbook two weeks.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:15

And then, you know, it's like I woke up the next day and the

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:20

clouds had parted and the sun was shining and I felt completely fine.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:25

So that was really interesting 'cause I'm able now to really

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:28

understand the fundamental difference.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:31

Like, the baby blues is not postpartum depression and postpartum

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:35

depression is not the baby blues.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:38

So it's really like, if those symptoms are extending beyond those couple

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:41

of weeks, then that's where, you know, it's important to pay attention

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:45

and just see what's going on.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:47

Right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:48

But definitely with my first, you know, I, I like to be honest and open and.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:53

When I gave birth, I was in love and I was like, "Oh my God, I love him so much!"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:10:57

And then the baby blues hit and then I thought, "Oh my God, what have I done?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:11:02

Like, "we've made a huge mistake."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:11:04

He was planned.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:11:05

All three of my kids were planned.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:11:06

But like, once I had him and he was on the outside, I thought,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:11:10

"Oh my gosh, can we just put him back in for like, just a week?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:11:13

Like, gimme a week to figure this out.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:11:15

Cause I don't know what I'm doing."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:11:17

And I think it's so much more common than we talk about and I think it's

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:11:22

important just to normalize that like, I can love my son and I can have

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:11:27

major fear of being a parent, or some days I don't want to parent, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:11:33

Like, especially with teenagers, there's some days I'm like, "I, I can't do this.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:11:37

I can't do it."

VIKKI: 00:11:39

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:11:40

And that isn't something that necessarily stops after the first couple of years

VIKKI: 00:11:45

because with your eldest, obviously every time they go through a new phase, it's

VIKKI: 00:11:50

the first time you're dealing with it.

VIKKI: 00:11:51

And I know from friends who have gone on to have two or three children

VIKKI: 00:11:57

that actually the new babies take care of themselves to an extent.

VIKKI: 00:12:01

Because "I know what I'm doing now.

VIKKI: 00:12:04

I know how that bit works, but I'm chasing after my toddler who was going through a

VIKKI: 00:12:09

new phase, and that is the mental anguish.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:12

Yeah.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:12

And it's so interesting you say that Vikki because I definitely felt that with my

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:18

second and then, you know, with my third, I was having that same feeling again.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:23

Like, "okay, it's the third.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:24

You know, we'll, we'll figure it out.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:27

Been there, done that."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:28

Even everyone around me was very like, you know, my doctor never asked like, "How

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:33

are you feeling emotionally, mentally?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:36

Those questions were never asked of me.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:38

Even though I had major struggles with nursing, I had, that's another podcast

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:43

episode, but major struggles with nursing, which I believe impacted my mental health.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:49

You know, I was never asked.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:50

And even my doctor was like, "Oh, it's your third", even kind of

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:53

preparing for labour and delivery or, you know, it was just "you've

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:12:59

got this", but I didn't have it.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:13:03

Um, and so that feeling of like, Okay, third baby, I know more what I'm doing.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:13:11

We'll get into a routine easily.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:13:12

And then when that wasn't happening, I was like, "What is wrong with me?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:13:17

What is going on?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:13:18

Because I couldn't get my shit together.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:13:23

I couldn't, you know, getting out the door with three kids was so hard, which

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:13:29

let's just normalise, like that's hard.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:13:31

That is hard right?

VIKKI: 00:13:33

Especially like in the early days, when it's probably taking you an hour

VIKKI: 00:13:36

to pack the bag, get everything ready, baby's ready and you get to the latch

VIKKI: 00:13:41

of the door and they poo themselves right up the back, change the thing...

VIKKI: 00:13:46

then they're hungry so you have to feed them...

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:13:48

Absolutely.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:13:49

And so it was like, I'm thinking to myself, "Well, it's my third,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:13:53

this should not be a problem.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:13:54

Like, you can change a diaper, you can get out the door, you know, you can

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:13:59

deal with it if your kid poos right up their back and they need a bath,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:03

and then you gotta- you can do that.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:04

But I wasn't able to and I didn't know why.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:09

I didn't know that postpartum anxiety was present.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:12

And so it was more the judgment that I think was really hindering me

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:16

that like, "what's wrong with you?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:18

Just do it.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:19

Just get out of the house.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:20

Like it's not a big deal."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:22

And it was a big deal.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:23

It felt impossible.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:24

And then I actually developed a fear of leaving the house with the three kids,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:30

of being alone with the three kids.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:33

Like, "I can't handle this, I can't do it."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:35

And so that kind of like, "okay, the baby can sort themselves out and

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:39

then you take care of the toddlers."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:41

In that case, with my third, I couldn't even deal with my toddlers because I was

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:49

so obsessed with nursing my third and getting it right for my last time that I

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:56

actually couldn't deal with my toddlers.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:14:57

They had to be like hyper independent.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:15:00

I fed them and that was about it, to be honest with you.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:15:05

So that was a big struggle.

VIKKI: 00:15:09

How early did you realize you weren't coping or that

VIKKI: 00:15:14

something had changed this time?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:15:16

I knew, like from when I gave birth.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:15:20

We left the hospital at like one o'clock in the morning.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:15:23

So here you are released from hospital 24 hours after delivery, 'cause they

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:15:28

check the baby's hearing, they do their tests and then off you go.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:15:33

But, so he was born like 11:30 at night, they did his ear hearing test

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:15:38

at like around midnight and so we could go at 1:00 AM but the nurse was like,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:15:44

"You can stay, like you're more than welcome to stay till the morning and like

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:15:47

leave not under the cloak of darkness."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:15:50

And I was like, No, like "Steven, get me out of here.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:15:54

I have to get out of here."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:15:55

And I was kind of like frantic.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:15:58

We left at 1:00 AM and like at that point we had moved outside of the city, so

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:03

we were an hour away from the hospital.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:04

The baby was crying the whole way home and I was just like "I can't deal with this.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:09

I can't cope."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:11

So I knew like I was feeling off, but of course I was like, I just

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:15

had a baby, like it's normal.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:18

And then that like feeling of 'I can never get my shit together' was present

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:25

like very quickly- very, very quickly.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:28

But I just kept chalking it up to my challenges with nursing.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:32

"Just keep trying harder, keep trying harder.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:34

You'll feel better.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:35

That's why you feel off, because the nursing is not going well."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:38

I had to, you know, I talked about this in my podcast too, but I

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:41

had so many doctors appointments constantly, so I'm like, "Okay.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:44

Of course I feel off, like I'm constantly running around.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:48

I have three kids, you know, the other two need my attention.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:52

Of course, no big deal."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:54

But I would say fairly quickly, even after a couple weeks, the excessive

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:16:59

crying, the excessive guilt, again not being able to make a decision.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:17:04

Which is -for better or for worse- is not me.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:17:08

Like I tend to make decisions quickly, you know, through impulsivity.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:17:12

Um, however, being stuck in decision making is not something I was used to.

VIKKI: 00:17:18

That's a huge thing that certainly for me, that resonates so much.

VIKKI: 00:17:23

I remember being like paralysed with fear sort of on a daily basis trying to

VIKKI: 00:17:27

decide what to dress baby Stanley in.

VIKKI: 00:17:31

And it's like, "Am I making the right choice?

VIKKI: 00:17:33

Is he gonna be cold?

VIKKI: 00:17:35

Am I gonna endanger him by having him in too many layers -that doesn't look right.

VIKKI: 00:17:40

Okay, I'm gonna change."

VIKKI: 00:17:41

and still I, I don't think I've ever quite got my confidence in decision

VIKKI: 00:17:47

making back and, when you go from a- you know, a fairly well functioning

VIKKI: 00:17:54

human being to somebody that cannot make a decision like that or panics

VIKKI: 00:17:58

in the middle of a supermarket because they're like really overthinking

VIKKI: 00:18:03

every single choice about like, which pasta brand to go with or, Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:18:07

It's really crippling and really scary.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:09

You're also looking at yourself from the outside thinking

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:14

like, "Why can't you make this decision?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:17

Like there was definitely a part of me that was present saying like,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:20

"You can make these decisions, why aren't you doing it?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:23

And there was that disconnect.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:25

And I agree and, you know, I, I take that into my work, but also

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:30

for myself is like that anxiety, you know, all those symptoms that we

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:36

experienced take us away from ourselves.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:41

Because it's this part, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:43

It's the anxious part or it's the depression part.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:46

It's the mum part, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:48

It's not Vikki or Christine.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:50

So then you are doubting Vikki, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:52

Like these parts are doubting you maybe even a little bit still and, and so

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:18:57

it's, I think there's a lot of work and recovery after experiencing postnatal

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:19:05

anxiety or depression or any of those PMADS in recovering from that experience

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:19:11

and healing these trauma wounds sometimes.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:19:16

I don't know about you, but the fear of going back to that place was...

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:19:24

I mean, it's still very present for me.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:19:27

However, in those first few years, it was terrifying.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:19:33

If I had a bad day, like mentally where I wasn't feeling well, I would be so upset

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:19:39

thinking, "Oh my gosh, it's happening.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:19:42

I'm gonna be like how I was then and I'm not gonna cope now because I've, I've

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:19:46

been doing okay and if I slide back, I'm gonna have to go to the hospital.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:19:51

Like, what's the next step?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:19:52

You know, How much more can I be medicated until I need to, like, be hospitalised?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:19:57

You know, it's just this fear of like, maybe it was just a bad day.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:20:01

Maybe I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed or I had a difficult

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:20:04

interaction at school or work.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:20:06

'Cause at that point then I was in school training.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:20:09

So that fear is very real.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:20:11

And now I see that as like we need to, you know, have support when we have, let's

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:20:18

say postpartum depression or anxiety.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:20:20

But then almost like past the year mark, we need like a recovery plan or we need

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:20:28

treatment specifically for that like wound that we can carry from that experience.

VIKKI: 00:20:33

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:20:34

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:20:35

I don't know if listeners can hear, but I've been nodding furiously throughout

VIKKI: 00:20:40

this past few minutes exactly like when I listened to your very first

VIKKI: 00:20:44

episode on your podcast, because everything you were saying resonated,

VIKKI: 00:20:48

you know, from the breastfeeding, that sort of agitation of like, "I've

VIKKI: 00:20:52

gotta get out, I've gotta get out."

VIKKI: 00:20:54

Funnily enough I was gonna move on to this next about, in your podcast you talk

VIKKI: 00:20:58

about the year sort of anniversary and that feeling of grief for the maternity

VIKKI: 00:21:05

leave that you didn't enjoy or the experience you didn't get to have.

VIKKI: 00:21:12

And that is something I still feel profoundly and I think every birthday and

VIKKI: 00:21:17

like Stanley's gonna be ten this year, so this is like, I still haven't quite gotten

VIKKI: 00:21:21

over it, but yeah, I feel a grief there.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:21:24

Absolutely.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:21:25

And I think it's helpful and important to acknowledge that grief never goes away.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:21:32

This grief that we feel for those experiences in the first year

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:21:37

is the same type of grief we feel when we lose a loved one.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:21:41

It's just a different context.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:21:43

And we know when we lose a loved one, that grief never goes away.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:21:47

We just kind of grow and change around the grief.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:21:52

And so it's not necessarily as acute as when it first happens,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:21:57

it will always be with us.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:00

And I think I had to do some, you know, reconciling with that, that

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:05

those feelings will always be with me.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:08

When I say trauma wound, I'm very visual.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:10

And so I think of, you know, at the beginning when we have those

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:13

post-trauma symptoms of like intense fear or avoidance or flashbacks, things

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:19

like that, it's like an open wound.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:21

It's oozing, it's bleeding, it's not nice.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:24

And then with help, with time, with therapy, sorry, I shouldn't

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:29

say time because time...

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:31

it does not heal all wounds, that's not a thing.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:33

But in that time, if we're going to therapy or doing the work to

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:37

heal the wounds, it will heal and then we will have a scar.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:42

So when you look at that scar, it's not oozing, it's not bleeding, it's not

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:45

sore to the touch, but when you look at it, you know where you got that scar.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:51

You know, when you look at it, "Oh, that was my experience of postnatal

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:22:56

depression or anxiety, and that sucked.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:23:01

It wasn't what I wanted.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:23:02

It was terrible, but I'm not also brought back to those feelings

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:23:06

of intensity from that time."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:23:08

So that's, kind of like what I like to see for myself and for people, you

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:23:13

know, I'm supporting is, okay, can we think about those times and acknowledge

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:23:17

those feelings, but not be like in those feelings of intensity anymore?

VIKKI: 00:23:24

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:23:25

But to acknowledge it, and actually it's okay to feel grief, it's okay to

VIKKI: 00:23:29

mourn the start to motherhood that you kind of expected or had hoped for.

VIKKI: 00:23:36

Another incredibly important point is about, you know, how

VIKKI: 00:23:39

recovery isn't a linear thing.

VIKKI: 00:23:40

And I think once you've been through something so dark, it's very, very

VIKKI: 00:23:46

easy that as soon as you get a blip, whether it's circumstantial, something

VIKKI: 00:23:51

that's happened, that's very stressful in your life, whether it's societal,

VIKKI: 00:23:56

like with the horrific war in Ukraine, the pandemic, or whether it's, you know,

VIKKI: 00:24:03

it could be hormonal, it could be to do with your cycle, but you're just having

VIKKI: 00:24:06

a really bad time and you're struggling.

VIKKI: 00:24:08

Following a period of feeling emotionally well.

VIKKI: 00:24:11

It is terrifying.

VIKKI: 00:24:12

That fear that, you know, "oh my God, I'm going backwards.

VIKKI: 00:24:15

I'm slipping back to that."

VIKKI: 00:24:16

And something that I learned through attending Liz Wise's support group

VIKKI: 00:24:21

that I found very, very helpful was her talking about the fact that

VIKKI: 00:24:25

it's not like an upwards trajectory.

VIKKI: 00:24:29

You know, if you looked at a graph of, somebody's recovery from

VIKKI: 00:24:33

postnatal depression or anxiety, it is literally jagged up and

VIKKI: 00:24:36

down, up and down, up and down.

VIKKI: 00:24:38

And again, that's okay.

VIKKI: 00:24:40

That's okay.

VIKKI: 00:24:42

It's not great that you feel bad, but don't beat yourself up about it.

VIKKI: 00:24:46

It doesn't mean you're not making progress..

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:24:47

Absolutely.

VIKKI: 00:24:47

making

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:24:48

Absolutely.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:24:49

Cause I think, again, like when we're in- I call it hell- for me my

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:24:55

personal experience with postpartum anxiety and depression was hell.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:01

I would not wish that on anybody.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:04

It was the worst time of my life.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:07

So for me, when you get some relief from that and you're like,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:12

"Oh my gosh, thank you so much".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:14

Like, I remember when my medication started kicking in and, and I talk

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:18

about it like the fog was lifting.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:22

The clouds were parting, and I could actually see what was around me.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:26

I could see my sons, I could see them for like themselves, like for their,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:32

you know, cute, funny, smart, gorgeous little beings as opposed to, you know,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:38

these two kids that were annoying me and getting in my way because I

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:41

was trying to nurse my little one.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:43

Right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:44

And so that to me was like, I was just so grateful to be able to see

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:51

them again through this like, loving lens, and to be able to connect to

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:56

the world around me and connect myself.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:25:59

And so then when we, like you said, like have that bad day, it's a

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:26:04

panic, like, "Oh my God, what if this means I'm going back to hell?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:26:08

Like to that time that was hell for me.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:26:12

I can't do it.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:26:13

Right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:26:14

It's terrifying.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:26:16

Like I had a visceral reaction and, uh, yeah, I mean, yeah, I had a very

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:26:25

visceral reaction a couple of times when I had, um, I had gone off my

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:26:30

medication to try to be 'normal' or 'I don't need medication anymore'.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:26:36

And it did not go well.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:26:38

And so that visceral reaction of when I wasn't feeling well, I remember it like

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:26:45

it was yesterday, and I almost like, I was very close to saying to my husband,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:26:51

You need to take me to the hospital.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:26:54

And so I started my medication again the next day.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:26:58

Unfortunately, I had to wait three weeks to get better.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:27:01

However, just knowing like, "Okay, I've started my medication

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:27:04

again, it's gonna kick in.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:27:05

I have to take care of myself here.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:27:07

I gotta slow down" was helpful and I made it through.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:27:11

But in that moment, that fear is just so intense.

VIKKI: 00:27:15

And that, whole sort of thing about medication is, I remember it's

VIKKI: 00:27:19

something, you know, and again, that's probably like a whole podcast into

VIKKI: 00:27:23

itself, but, but that feeling of, "how long am I gonna feel like this for?

VIKKI: 00:27:28

How long am I gonna have to stay on the medication?

VIKKI: 00:27:30

Is it gonna make me artificially happy when I'm not happy?"

VIKKI: 00:27:34

And, you know, gosh, nine and a half years on, I'm still on the meds.

VIKKI: 00:27:38

I've tried to come off them and it took me back to hell.

VIKKI: 00:27:42

And I've just come to terms, you know now, if I need to take them

VIKKI: 00:27:47

for the rest of my life and it gives me 'me' back, I'm fine with that.

VIKKI: 00:27:51

If I was diabetic, I would need insulin.

VIKKI: 00:27:54

I'm asthmatic, so I need my steroid inhaler.

VIKKI: 00:27:57

I'm fine with that, You know, so be it.

VIKKI: 00:28:00

It's, incredible your description of when you came up for air, Because for

VIKKI: 00:28:04

me, I remember trying to describe it to my husband and to me, it would feel

VIKKI: 00:28:10

like sort of surfacing, resurfacing above water after being submerged.

VIKKI: 00:28:17

And it's that feeling of suddenly being able to breathe and gulp air

VIKKI: 00:28:21

again and have a clarity to everything.

VIKKI: 00:28:26

And just this feeling of like a weight off your shoulders.

VIKKI: 00:28:29

And I, I could have that in a day, a single day of like being really bad

VIKKI: 00:28:33

and then "actually everything's okay.

VIKKI: 00:28:37

Everything's okay."

VIKKI: 00:28:38

And I'm sure hormones played a big part.

VIKKI: 00:28:42

Of that with me, but it didn't matter, you know, Even if it was like, okay, a

VIKKI: 00:28:45

week before my, period was due I'd be so far down a deep black hole you

VIKKI: 00:28:53

know, I just think this is the reality.

VIKKI: 00:28:56

This is the reality, not feeling emotionally well.

VIKKI: 00:28:59

And funnily enough, one of my best friends, we both have this thing called

VIKKI: 00:29:03

the 'Fanny Club', where if one of us is like in that deep, dark hole, the

VIKKI: 00:29:10

other normally knows "Okay, you're gonna come on in about a week's time.

VIKKI: 00:29:15

So my job is to remind you that this is not the reality, that

VIKKI: 00:29:19

actually everything's okay."

VIKKI: 00:29:21

So we have a fanny alert

VIKKI: 00:29:23

we're

VIKKI: 00:29:24

to.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:29:25

I love that.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:29:26

That is amazing, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:29:28

It's like, let's just put this out there.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:29:31

Let's be honest about what we're experiencing and then yeah.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:29:34

How can we help each other?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:29:35

Right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:29:36

It's like, it's just talking.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:29:38

It's sharing our realities, it's being honest with ourselves and with the

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:29:42

people around us about how we're feeling.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:29:44

And that's not always easy, but I, I love that concept of, you know,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:29:49

can I be a part of the Fanny Club?

VIKKI: 00:29:51

You can Totally, Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:29:52

Cause

VIKKI: 00:29:53

also you know, WhatsApping and saying like, I'm being a fanny at

VIKKI: 00:29:57

the moment, it's, a shorthand for saying "everything's overwhelming.

VIKKI: 00:30:04

I want to run away.

VIKKI: 00:30:05

I don't see there's a way out".

VIKKI: 00:30:07

But anyway, Yeah, and, and we haven't even talked about things like menopause.

VIKKI: 00:30:11

Thank God people are now beginning to be much more open about, you

VIKKI: 00:30:14

know, it's really debilitating.

VIKKI: 00:30:16

It can be horrific, you know, how the hell did our mothers go through it and

VIKKI: 00:30:21

just keep quiet about the whole thing?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:30:23

Exactly right.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:30:25

Um, I see that Davina, So, Davina McCall is my favorite.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:30:30

And when I was living in Northern Ireland 15 plus years ago, I started,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:30:36

you know, doing her fitness DVDs and

VIKKI: 00:30:39

Oh my God, they're amazing -yeah!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:30:40

Vikki.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:30:41

I own every single one of them, and they're upstairs in my living room.

VIKKI: 00:30:47

Do you know what I think I've still got, like, I'll, I'll

VIKKI: 00:30:49

take the dust off it, but I remember there was one with Hot Chip.

VIKKI: 00:30:53

It was before I'd given birth, it was before I was pregnant, and

VIKKI: 00:30:56

I remember Davina saying, "These leg kicks are worse than labour.

VIKKI: 00:30:59

"They were like lunge kicks.

VIKKI: 00:31:01

And I remember thinking "My God, if labour's worse than

VIKKI: 00:31:03

this, I wanna go through it!"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:31:07

Oh my gosh, yes.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:31:08

Oh, anyways, But so Davina's talking a lot about menopause,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:31:12

which is, which is nice, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:31:14

Like it's all these experiences, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:31:17

I think it's so important to, to talk about, and when you talk about

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:31:23

those hormone shifts and changes, um, now I know that those have a

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:31:30

massive impact on symptoms of ADHD.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:31:34

And so is this a good time to kind of talk..?

VIKKI: 00:31:37

Do you know what?

VIKKI: 00:31:38

This is a beautiful segue.

VIKKI: 00:31:39

You can tell that you are a podcaster because you have literally,

VIKKI: 00:31:43

you're like, I'm over here.

VIKKI: 00:31:44

We're on a tangent.

VIKKI: 00:31:45

We're talking about, you know, leg kicks.

VIKKI: 00:31:48

I'm just gonna segue over here and and bring us back on topic.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:31:52

Sorry I don't mean to like ... I wanna let you...

VIKKI: 00:31:55

No, it's beautiful.

VIKKI: 00:31:56

You can totally take over the driving because you're so much

VIKKI: 00:32:00

better versed in it than I am.

VIKKI: 00:32:02

And, you've beautifully brought it into it.

VIKKI: 00:32:04

And what I'd love to know is, first of all, what prompted you

VIKKI: 00:32:10

to seek a diagnosis for your son?

VIKKI: 00:32:12

Like how was that presenting itself?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:14

It's so interesting because like I said, I would always

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:17

say, "Oh my son's so much like me.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:18

He's so much like me, like in every way."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:21

And then I remember we went to an open house at the elementary

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:25

school for, you know, kindergarten.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:28

So he was like three ish, like just three.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:33

And so they had tables set up like with things to do for the kids, like cutting

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:37

and writing their name and da, da da.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:40

My son was the only kid that did not do any of the activities.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:45

He had never put pen to paper at home.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:48

Like he never wrote his name at home or anything like that.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:52

Um, he just walked around the class and looked around

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:55

and, you know, "what's this?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:57

And "what's that?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:58

You know?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:32:58

So I was like, "Okay, there's something different here."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:33:02

Like, not in a bad way, but just, "okay, interesting".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:33:08

So two years later, when he was in first grade, um, his teacher,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:33:12

you know, said, "uh, it might be a good idea to get him tested".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:33:15

So I said, "Okay."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:33:16

So we got him tested, and then again, when, you know, you're going through

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:33:19

all the questionnaires, um, they ask about the parents like, about

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:33:25

kind of your past and your schooling and how did you do in school?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:33:28

And I'm like, "Oh, not very good , um, when I was younger" and, and so, but

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:33:34

it's, it's different to because biological males and biological females do present

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:33:40

differently, very differently in ADHD.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:33:43

And so I do have hyperactive, I'm hyperactive, impulsive type.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:33:48

And if you know me, that makes a lot of sense.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:33:51

Um, ,hence the like, not able to stop talking!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:33:55

But you know, as a girl, I wasn't like jumping off of desks and, you know,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:01

throwing chairs in the class or whatever.

VIKKI: 00:34:03

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:34:04

When you hear about ADHD, you, you think about boys being really

VIKKI: 00:34:07

boisterous, disruptive, bricks through windows, that sort of thing.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:11

Absolutely.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:12

And that's like the biggest stereotype.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:15

It can be one facet.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:16

I mean, my two sons who have ADHD have never put, you know, a brick

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:21

through a window or like, they're very extremely active and don't

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:27

stop until they fall asleep.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:29

Absolutely.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:30

Um, but in school they've been able to manage their behavior.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:34

Like they're not bouncing off walls.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:37

They're not- Yes they roam around class, like walking around and getting up kind

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:42

of even in the middle of the teacher talking, however, they're not like

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:47

throwing chairs or, you know, things like that, which is just interesting.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:51

Right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:52

At that time I was in college- I was back in college, uh, doing my social

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:34:57

service worker diploma, um, to go into mental health and addictions

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:02

work and become a counsellor.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:04

So I was really then kind of learning more about it and, okay, this is

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:10

interesting and thinking about it for myself and what this means for me.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:13

And I was like, "yeah, that makes a lot of sense."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:17

And I still have all my old report cards from school.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:20

So I pulled them out and I looked through them 'cause the psychiatrist said, you

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:25

know, "if you look at your report cards and they all say like, you talk too much

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:29

or you know, your grades weren't great or whatever, he's like, chances are because

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:32

your son has it, you probably have it."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:34

Okay.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:35

So I go look through all my report cards: "Christine just

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:37

needs to focus and try harder.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:39

Christine talks too much.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:41

Christine interrupts her peers."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:42

Um.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:43

So that was my life.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:46

And looking back, I remember I loved school, I love learning, I love reading.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:35:56

And I would try so hard and never like reach my potential so to speak,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:36:03

and always feeling like I'm missing the mark, I'm missing this something.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:36:08

There's something I don't understand, something I don't catch.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:36:12

Always kind of feeling like there's some like basics in life that I don't get.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:36:18

And so before knowing about ADHD, I was like, "I think I'm dumb."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:36:24

And I do not like saying that, I don't like saying that, but sometimes

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:36:27

I would say that to myself, like, "I think I'm just not smart."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:36:33

But now I know like, ADHD has nothing to do with your intelligence and

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:36:37

actually I am really intelligent.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:36:39

it's just how my brain works and yeah, I miss out on some social cues or

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:36:43

there's some social constructs that I don't understand or I don't abide by

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:36:49

'cause I don't agree with them . Like letting a podcast host, you know, ask

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:36:54

their own questions on their podcast!

VIKKI: 00:36:57

Oh my God.

VIKKI: 00:36:58

No, please stop apologizing.

VIKKI: 00:37:00

My God, you did me a massive favour.

VIKKI: 00:37:02

'Cause I was just thinking how am I gonna bring it round to this?

VIKKI: 00:37:04

And then you did it so beautifully and eloquently and

VIKKI: 00:37:07

you were like hormones, ADHD.

VIKKI: 00:37:10

But this is absolutely fascinating to me, and I mean certainly I think

VIKKI: 00:37:15

there was some sort of neuro divergent awareness week 'cause there's been

VIKKI: 00:37:20

a lot of press about, the benefits.

VIKKI: 00:37:22

And I know LinkedIn they've done a collaboration with, I think

VIKKI: 00:37:26

Richard Branson was connected to it, where you now actually have

VIKKI: 00:37:29

'Dyslexic Mind' as a quality that you put on your LinkedIn profile.

VIKKI: 00:37:35

And I love that because, you know, my background is, is creative,

VIKKI: 00:37:39

you know, television industry.

VIKKI: 00:37:40

And we're constantly being told, you know, "think outside the box, be innovative"

VIKKI: 00:37:47

and how can you be innovative if you have the same type of people with the same

VIKKI: 00:37:52

type of experiences, with the same type of cultural and socioeconomic backgrounds?

VIKKI: 00:37:58

You're always gonna come up with the same ideas.

VIKKI: 00:38:01

And I know with colleagues and friends who are neuro divergent in,

VIKKI: 00:38:05

you know, lots of different ways, they are brilliant because of that.

VIKKI: 00:38:10

It is a quality that they have, you know, and that should be celebrated.

VIKKI: 00:38:17

Nobody should be penalized for that or feel shame or guilt.

VIKKI: 00:38:21

You know, everybody's wired differently.

VIKKI: 00:38:23

When it comes to, you know, things like the spectrum, most of us are

VIKKI: 00:38:27

somewhere on that spectrum, you know, and there's so much light or shade.

VIKKI: 00:38:31

When it was suggested to you that you or your husband might have

VIKKI: 00:38:35

ADHD, was it presented to you in the form of like a checklist, a

VIKKI: 00:38:40

test, like the Edinburgh Survey?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:38:43

No, it was really just the psychiatrist saying, Well,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:38:46

if your kid has it, one of you has it.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:38:48

So figure out who has it.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:38:50

And then that's the problem with our system is finding support for

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:38:54

adults with ADHD is, like impossible.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:38:59

And there's no supports that, I mean, you can see it.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:03

So we have our healthcare system, which is similar to the nhs, um,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:07

where our healthcare like is paid for.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:10

And so you can see a psychiatrist to diagnose you.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:13

However, the wait list for me, it took over a year, you know,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:18

and which is typical right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:20

For healthcare systems such as ours.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:23

But you can pay someone privately, you know, a thousand dollars to,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:29

to do an assessment and all that.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:30

But at the time I thought to myself "Well, I'm studying to be a counsellor

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:36

so I can just figure this out and I can like teach myself and my son coping

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:41

skills, um, because that's what I'm gonna do for a living and it'll be fine".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:47

It wasn't fine.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:49

The other thing too that I will say is that, at that time, interestingly

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:54

enough, I was on my SSRI for my anxiety.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:39:58

I also didn't know that, I would say, the majority of people, I've read

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:04

stats of 40% of people, 60% of people with ADHD have a comorbid diagnosis

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:10

of generalized anxiety disorder.

VIKKI: 00:40:13

What does comorbid mean, for us ley people?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:15

Yeah.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:15

So

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:15

comorbid

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:16

yeah, so comorbid is just like alongside.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:18

So, uh, it just means, you know, you have ADHD and then you have anxiety,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:23

so they're alongside each other.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:26

So a, a comorbid diagnosis, you have two diagnoses.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:31

And so, um, looking back again, I can certainly see that I think

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:35

anxiety was present my whole life.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:37

I just wasn't aware of it.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:39

Right.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:40

And both of my sons also have generalized anxiety disorder

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:44

with their diagnosis of ADHD.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:46

So I was in school at the time, and then I was really focusing my,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:50

work and my training on addictions.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:53

It just became my passion at that time.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:40:56

And I, I, you know, studied in that and I worked in that.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:41:00

And so I developed a bias about ADHD medication.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:41:06

And I will say that now I understand that that bias was incorrect.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:41:11

It was influenced by what I was seeing in my everyday work where I would have

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:41:17

a lot of people, and especially like I did, you know, to be gendered, I did

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:41:22

have a lot of male presenting clients come in and say they were diagnosed

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:41:26

with ADHD at a young age, and then they took the medication, it didn't work

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:41:30

for them or, but then they were all using like hard drugs, like cocaine,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:41:36

methamphetamines, things like that.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:41:39

So then I developed this fear that if my son took medication,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:41:45

he would develop this addiction.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:41:49

And so, kind of like a negative side of ADHD is like, you get turned off of

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:41:56

things very easily, which, you know, some people might call boredom, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:01

But it's like if I don't agree with something or I don't understand something,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:05

I just kind of put it out of my mind.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:07

And I don't really think any further of it.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:09

And so I just shut the idea down.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:11

And so I thought "I'm not gonna bother getting a diagnosis

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:14

'cause I don't want medication.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:17

I'll just deal with it.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:18

It's fine.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:18

What do I need it for?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:20

And I didn't put my son on medication either.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:23

I was adamant.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:23

And interestingly enough when the psychiatrist, you know,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:26

he got his diagnosis and then asked like, "Okay, you know, I

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:29

recommend medication for your son."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:31

And I said, "No, we're not doing that."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:33

And he's like, "Okay, well I'll see you never".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:36

And that was it.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:37

Like we didn't get any other supports.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:39

He was not referred to counselling.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:42

Um, there was no like counselling covered by our healthcare system.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:47

So if he wasn't taking medication, he wasn't being followed by anyone.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:51

And so then I was left as a parent with ADHD to figure out how to

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:42:58

help my son and like what to do.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:01

So I did get him into a program for anxiety and it was like a group with other

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:06

kids and they learned skills and stuff, which we still use those skills today.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:09

It was amazing.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:10

It was so wonderful.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:12

And I think that really helped him with like managing his anger.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:17

So again, as a girl, I look back and I see like where anger came out

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:21

for me and like sometimes rage too.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:25

Um, But a boy with testosterone, that's biologically different, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:30

So he would, you know, get upset, like someone hurt his feelings and he

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:35

would slam the front door or, um, be like, so much more physical, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:40

So I was like, "buddy, like we can't, we're not doing that.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:44

Like, we gotta figure out how to manage, right?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:46

So even just honestly deep breathing, like taking moments, like he really latched

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:52

onto those skills and still uses them now.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:54

And I was nervous.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:56

Like one day he's gonna be a teenager and now he's a 14 year old and he's

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:43:59

not, my kids are not throwing their Xbox remotes or like punching walls.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:44:04

Like that's not a thing in my house.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:44:06

So I'm very, very happy about that.

VIKKI: 00:44:09

And also how brilliant to have like the tools to self medicate, you

VIKKI: 00:44:14

know, rather than, and that, that's not to say there's anything wrong

VIKKI: 00:44:17

with medication, but, um, I mean, I know very, very little about ADHD

VIKKI: 00:44:22

and I'm fascinated to learn more.

VIKKI: 00:44:24

But I do know my brother had a friend who was a girl I think

VIKKI: 00:44:27

she had adhd and this is like back in rural Scotland in the 1980s.

VIKKI: 00:44:32

So there was like really lack of understanding.

VIKKI: 00:44:36

I mean, it was hard enough for me being a vegetarian in the 1980s, let alone

VIKKI: 00:44:40

know having you know, neuro divergence.

VIKKI: 00:44:43

And I remember she was given Ritalin, I think, and that

VIKKI: 00:44:46

just turned her into a zombie.

VIKKI: 00:44:48

It was really bad.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:44:50

Yes.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:44:51

And that's the thing, right, is like hearing those stories.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:44:53

Like those are the stories we hear.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:44:55

Those are the stories I knew of.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:44:57

And then starting to work with people who were addicted to stimulants, like

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:03

illegal stimulants and they have ADHD.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:05

So I just put this like idea in my head "if they go on

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:10

medication, this is what happens".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:12

And so I didn't do my research.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:14

I just impulsively said, "No, that's it".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:16

Shutting it down.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:18

And so my son, like as he progressed, fell very far behind in school.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:25

He was at least two grades behind.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:28

Um, and that was a struggle for me.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:30

Like, that was really hard for me to reconcile 'cause also I can't sit

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:35

down and do homework with my kids.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:37

It's really, really hard for me to do that.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:40

And so I felt like I'm a failure.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:43

I'm not helping my son.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:45

I should be like homeschooling him, you know, to get him to where he needs to be.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:50

And like, I just, I can't do that.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:53

And so then I started researching about medication.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:56

I started actually sitting down and reading.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:45:59

And then what I learned from the literature is unmedicated ADHD is what

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:46:05

can lead to addiction because right, because our brains are just, everyone's

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:46:12

brains are, are seeking dopamine.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:46:13

But ours is kind of like turbocharged really, cuz our

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:46:17

dopamine levels are low, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:46:19

So we're seeking that, like whether it's food or sex or, um, you know,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:46:25

drugs or whatever that is, physical alcohol, physical activity, you know,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:46:30

we're seeking that dopamine hit, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:46:34

And so if you take medication that helps with your dopamine production,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:46:39

which then helps with focus and concentration and organization and all

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:46:43

those wonderful things and so the more I learned, I thought, okay, "I think

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:46:49

we need to talk about medication".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:46:51

So during the pandemic- my youngest was in second grade when the pandemic

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:46:56

started -so my youngest and my oldest did no schoolwork for six months.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:47:03

Six months!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:47:04

Because it was like school was shut and it was like, " do it at home."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:47:10

It wasn't like led by the teacher online.

VIKKI: 00:47:14

I was going to ask you how you found homeschooling.

VIKKI: 00:47:16

that must have been impossible.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:47:18

Torture.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:47:18

Well, I tried it for a week.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:47:21

I made this big chart and I was like, "We are gonna stay on track.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:47:25

It's gonna be amazing."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:47:27

Nope, the chart was in the garbage within a week, and.

VIKKI: 00:47:32

Do you know what so many parents are gonna be going like?

VIKKI: 00:47:34

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:47:34

Yeah, I mean like literally the first day where you're like "We're gonna

VIKKI: 00:47:37

do this, we're gonna do a bit of English, then we're gonna do that,

VIKKI: 00:47:40

and then it's physical exercise.

VIKKI: 00:47:41

We're gonna do yoga with Adrienne on YouTube..."

VIKKI: 00:47:44

and yeah, same here- lasted about 2 days!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:47:47

Yeah, absolutely.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:47:48

And I was like, okay.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:47:50

And then the second year, you know, of course like they're a bit behind but

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:47:55

then they were back online but it was like teacher-led homeschooling, like,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:00

you know, kind of like Zoom, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:02

And uh, my youngest couldn't sit in the seat, couldn't sit still.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:08

Like I noticed his classroom behaviors, like of walking around, wandering around.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:13

So I was working from home, like with my private practice and so I was downstairs

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:17

in a session and then the sessions finish.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:20

I come upstairs and my son is on the couch watching TV and he has drawn a massive

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:26

picture of Baby Yoda, like he coloured in this colouring photo, taped it to

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:33

his chair in front of his classroom, and he let Baby Yoda be in class for

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:40

him because he was not having it!

VIKKI: 00:48:43

Do you know what?

VIKKI: 00:48:44

But that to me is thinking outside the box.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:46

Absolutely.

VIKKI: 00:48:47

I love the creativity there!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:47

I love it!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:48

He hung it up in his room, on his wall.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:50

I was like, This is amazing.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:51

I took a picture, I put it all over Facebook.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:53

I loved it.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:54

Amazing.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:55

I couldn't, I could not get mad at him for that.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:48:58

So, um, so then I was starting to think, okay, he's also behind in his

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:49:04

reading, in, you know, his schoolwork.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:49:07

Then at that point, my son, my oldest had like two years before high school, so

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:49:12

I thought we've gotta do something here.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:49:14

And I attended a talk for parents with kids with ADHD and then

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:49:18

one of the psychiatrists was talking about parents with ADHD.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:49:23

She was saying that executive functioning is 100% inheritable.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:49:29

Our executive functioning 100% comes from our parents, and that's all

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:49:33

these functions in the front of the brain that are impaired by ADHD.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:49:40

And so I was like, "Oh!"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:49:42

and she said "The best thing to do for your kids is to get your own diagnosis

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:49:48

and your own treatment plan, because how are you supposed to help your kids if

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:49:53

your symptoms are not under control?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:49:55

Right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:49:56

I went to my doctor probably a couple days later and got the

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:00

referral in and I thought, "Okay, I wanna try medication for this".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:05

And then I was like, frantic, because you're telling someone with ADHD they

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:10

have to wait a year for an assessment!

VIKKI: 00:50:12

Yeah- that's very counterintuitive!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:15

Yes, it was absolute torture, Vikki!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:18

Um, so my youngest got his diagnosis.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:21

We got my oldest re-evaluated, got them both started on medication.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:26

And then what I learned through my research was those instances

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:30

of people being like zombies on medication, it's because the

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:34

medication wasn't right for them.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:36

The dose was too high or the brand was not right.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:40

Right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:40

Like we know with any type of mental health, medication, it's, it's

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:44

such a trial and error process.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:46

I've been on like three or four different medications for my anxiety, because

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:52

some don't agree with us, or maybe they work for a while and then they

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:50:56

kind of lose their efficacy, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:00

So it's a challenge and that's why I think people struggle a

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:03

lot with medication compliance.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:05

Um, they're like, "Oh, I feel great, I'll just go off my meds."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:09

Right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:09

And then like myself, I did it right and it was not great.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:14

So, anyways, fast forward I got my diagnosis finally, which is

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:18

only last year, Last April, Yes.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:22

And started medication thereafter, and it's been life changing.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:28

So I'm able to actually do the things on my to-do list.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:33

So I have a big giant whiteboard in the middle of my main floor,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:37

so I can see it from anywhere.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:40

And so I have to look at it like probably a hundred times a day.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:43

Right.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:43

Like, what's next?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:44

Before the medication it'd be like, I would put, let's say I, I try

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:48

not to put more than three things.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:49

So if you're listening and you have ADHD, do not put more than

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:52

three things on your to-do list.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:54

You can have your long to-do list of everything you need done- 'cause if we

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:51:58

have ADHD, you have a hundred to-do lists- um, but I definitely don't put more than

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:03

three things on my list for the day.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:05

But what was happening was I put my three things and then it's the same

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:09

three things on the whiteboard every day because I don't do it ,right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:14

Or I'll say, "Okay, today I'm getting caught up on my case notes or I'm gonna

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:19

vacuum the house" or, you know, whatever.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:21

And then it just, something better comes along.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:24

Right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:26

So I started taking medication and then all of a sudden I was checking

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:29

off the things on the to-do list and my husband would get home and I'm like,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:34

"Babe, I vacuumed the house, or like I did the dishes" and he's like, "Wow!"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:40

Like not in a sarcastic way.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:43

You know after let's say the first week, he was like, "Yeah, I really

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:46

noticed that you're doing more."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:49

So it's definitely been helpful.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:51

It's been helpful for my children.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:53

They are able to focus and concentrate in class.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:52:57

They are no different personality wise.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:00

I am no different personality wise, I still feel all of my emotions.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:06

Um, so do my children and you know, we've had to make tweaks here and

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:11

there, um, to the dosage level.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:15

A big complaint is like not being hungry, like kids not eating a lot.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:20

And my youngest could do with some bulking up a little bit.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:24

So they were kind of worried 'cause he did lose a bit of weight at first.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:29

So it was just kind of playing around with the dosage.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:31

But after a couple weeks he got used to it and it was fine.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:34

So again, if you're concerned about that as a parent or for yourself

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:40

it's a symptom, it's a side effect.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:41

You do get used to it, it does go away.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:44

And if it doesn't go away, that's just a sign to reassess your medication.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:49

It could be like going down in your dose or it actually

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:51

could be going up in your dose.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:54

Obviously you work with your doctor on that.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:56

So that was eye opening.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:53:59

And then I had mum guilt -that came in and said, "You should have put your

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:54:04

son on meds from day one, and then maybe he wouldn't be so behind and now

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:54:10

he's in high school and he's behind".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:54:13

Whereas now I am seeing my youngest is catching up and he's coming more

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:54:17

to his grade level much sooner.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:54:21

So yeah, that's kind of that story with medication there.

VIKKI: 00:54:27

But it's absolutely fascinating.

VIKKI: 00:54:28

I don't know if, you've listened to the episode with Mark Williams- I think it's

VIKKI: 00:54:32

split across two actually, 'Daddy Blues'- and Mark is such an amazing guy, but

VIKKI: 00:54:39

he had a very late diagnosis of ADHD.

VIKKI: 00:54:43

And again, he said it was life changing, that validation- "so that is why I

VIKKI: 00:54:48

kept getting labelled as the bad kid at school or the disruptive kid at school,

VIKKI: 00:54:53

or not reaching my potential, you know, that's why I would get distracted and muck

VIKKI: 00:54:59

around, you know, because of the ADHD."

VIKKI: 00:55:02

and that's how it manifested itself in him.

VIKKI: 00:55:05

The only thing I could compare it to, I guess, is when Liz or somebody said to

VIKKI: 00:55:10

me, You have postnatal depression and the illness is why you feel X, Y, and Z.

VIKKI: 00:55:17

You know, that is a classic symptom, and suddenly you feel you can

VIKKI: 00:55:21

take some of that self- blame off.

VIKKI: 00:55:24

You know, that feeling of like, " I'm dumb, I'm stupid",

VIKKI: 00:55:26

or, why can't I get it right?"

VIKKI: 00:55:29

And actually it validates you and validates your experience.

VIKKI: 00:55:33

Would you say?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:55:34

Absolutely.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:55:35

When you can put language to it, you know, language is what we use

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:55:40

to make sense of our lives and our world and the people around us.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:55:45

So when we can put language to our symptoms, for example, "Oh, I'm not a

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:55:51

bad mum, I don't actually hate my kids.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:55:54

It's just these intrusive thoughts that I get because of postpartum

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:55:58

depression or postpartum anxiety."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:01

And so it's like, "that wasn't Christine that like resented

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:05

her boys for being in the way.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:07

That was the symptoms, that was the illness."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:11

And so absolutely the same thing with ADHD where I can look back and go,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:17

"Oh, that makes so much sense, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:20

Like I'm not dumb.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:23

And yes, I sometimes don't pick up on social cues or those social

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:27

constructs that don't make sense to me or that's why I interrupt - it's

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:32

like, 'cause I'm excited".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:34

Or it's not 'cause I'm a jerk.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:36

It's like I don't wanna be mean, I'm just like so excited.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:40

Right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:41

And then also we can then say that's the reason for the way I behave or the things

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:49

that I do or the struggles that I have.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:52

Not an excuse, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:55

But now I can say, "and what do I need to manage those symptoms?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:56:59

How do I take care of myself so that I can show up as best as I

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:03

can for my kids, or for myself or for my work, for my partner."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:08

Now I can figure it out instead of just spinning my wheels and thinking

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:11

like, "just try harder, Christine!"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:13

You know, then I try harder, but it doesn't work.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:16

So then I just, I'm in this shame spiral!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:19

Interestingly enough, Mark Williams, he talks about as well

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:22

his experience with postpartum depression, as a dad, which I love.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:27

Mark if you're listening I would still love to have you on my podcast...

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:32

But also interesting then too to see those intersections of ADHD and, for

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:38

example, post-partum depression or postpartum anxiety, and that I definitely

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:42

see how it impacted my symptoms.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:47

So, especially in biological females, we have hormone fluctuations week to week.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:55

Which is hard.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:56

Right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:57:57

And so I didn't know this until like last year, but some women actually have

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:02

a different dosage for their medication in the first half of their cycle

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:07

and the second half of their cycle.

VIKKI: 00:58:09

Wow!

VIKKI: 00:58:09

That's fascinating.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:10

Yes, I know.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:12

Um, because again, those low oestrogen levels, really impact our symptoms.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:18

Right.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:19

So then I would tend to then be more, um, definitely more anxious.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:24

Um, I notice the focus and concentration is just not there.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:29

You know, just really struggling to put things together, execute a plan,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:35

or get things done in the house.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:38

And I now know that that low oestrogen is impacting my functioning, my

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:44

actual executive functioning.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:47

And then also with adhd, for most of us, again, just like

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:50

autism, it's a spectrum, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:53

I think that's also the hard part is that every single person presents differently.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:58:58

But for me, um, I feel my emotions in really big ways.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:59:03

I have big emotions and like, I love hard and I hurt really hard.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:59:09

We know too, like even for people without ADHD, we can be more

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:59:12

emotionally sensitive, you know, in those certain times, especially leading

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:59:16

up to our period post ovulation.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:59:20

And so in ADHD that's also heightened.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:59:23

So again, if, if you think about males who really, from like puberty to

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:59:30

death, Yes, their testosterone levels shift and change throughout the day

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:59:36

even, but it's not the same impact on their functioning as it is for us.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:59:41

Whereas if you think our hormone levels shift week to week, you know,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:59:46

our whole entire lives, and we're dealing with that internally and trying

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:59:51

to manage that like week to week, forever, you know, that's a big impact.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 00:59:57

And I think that's a big intersection with ADHD that I've literally

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:00:02

never heard anyone talk about it except this one podcast where this

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:00:06

woman said her medication dosage is different throughout the month.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:00:09

And I was like "oh my God!"

VIKKI: 01:00:12

That's, incredible.

VIKKI: 01:00:13

Well, even you just saying about oestrogen, makes me think is it a

VIKKI: 01:00:17

depletion of oestrogen levels that makes menopausal brain fog, you know, and, I,

VIKKI: 01:00:22

I was just gonna say, I'm absolutely fascinated in this subject and I'd love

VIKKI: 01:00:26

to look into getting an endocrinologist on to talk about hormones so that I could

VIKKI: 01:00:32

you know, just get my head around it all.

VIKKI: 01:00:35

But also just things in terms of like anxiety, just generally.

VIKKI: 01:00:40

I think people don't quite understand how that overthinking and that fear,

VIKKI: 01:00:45

that sort of going into that panicked fight or flight mode can stop, you

VIKKI: 01:00:49

know, if you are feeling the effects of postnatal anxiety or postnatal

VIKKI: 01:00:54

depression, how just even things like washing up or getting out of bed, looking

VIKKI: 01:01:01

after a kid, feeding, you know, the anxiety of like what to cook for dinner.

VIKKI: 01:01:06

I know it sounds like a really purile thing, but just the

VIKKI: 01:01:09

overthinking of like nutrition and am I getting the right thing...

VIKKI: 01:01:13

and it can be exhausting.

VIKKI: 01:01:16

And if you take somebody who you know actually was, good

VIKKI: 01:01:21

at their job, got things done.

VIKKI: 01:01:24

And then with the effects of that, even just keeping a house together or getting

VIKKI: 01:01:30

out of the house feels like such an uphill struggle and it's exhausting.

VIKKI: 01:01:35

Does that resonate at all?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:01:36

Oh my gosh Vikki completely because...

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:01:40

and that's the thing where like ADHD symptoms and anxiety are so

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:01:43

similar, like you said, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:01:44

When that anxiety comes in and we're in fight or flight mode, our

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:01:48

prefrontal cortex shuts down, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:01:50

So the front of the brain shuts down because we're like, "I just need to

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:01:53

focus on staying alive", so even if the threat outside is not actual life

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:01:58

and death, our body doesn't know that.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:01:59

Our body just thinks...

VIKKI: 01:02:01

Perceived threat?

VIKKI: 01:02:02

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: Perceived threat, exactly.

VIKKI: 01:02:04

And so it's shutting down those functions of like organising and you

VIKKI: 01:02:08

know, executing tasks like cooking dinner, uh, doing the washing up.

VIKKI: 01:02:13

That requires like, okay, I need to wash the dishes, then I need to dry them.

VIKKI: 01:02:16

Then I need to put them away.

VIKKI: 01:02:18

Again, it sounds simple to most people, but we take it for granted that that

VIKKI: 01:02:24

uses our executive functioning When anxiety comes in, that is shut down

VIKKI: 01:02:28

'cause we don't need to do the dishes, we just need to stay alive in that moment.

VIKKI: 01:02:33

So then imagine if you go into that situation with ADHD where your

VIKKI: 01:02:38

executive functioning is impaired.

VIKKI: 01:02:42

It is impaired, it's an impairment and I see how that comes out of my life.

VIKKI: 01:02:46

I also see how the way my brain functions, like I can get a lot of shit done in a

VIKKI: 01:02:54

small amount of time that people around me don't do and I'm happy about that.

VIKKI: 01:03:00

Right?

VIKKI: 01:03:01

It works in great ways sometimes.

VIKKI: 01:03:04

Um, and so if you think about too, even just going into parenthood

VIKKI: 01:03:09

without postpartum depression or anxiety is overwhelming.

VIKKI: 01:03:13

I was twenty five, twenty six when I gave birth to my first, So before that it

VIKKI: 01:03:19

was like, yeah, I'm living my best life.

VIKKI: 01:03:20

I can do whatever I want.

VIKKI: 01:03:22

I can eat cereal for dinner.

VIKKI: 01:03:24

Like, you know, Yeah.

VIKKI: 01:03:25

And I can go to work and be a functioning human.

VIKKI: 01:03:27

And then when you have a baby that is all executive functioning, I

VIKKI: 01:03:33

need to like learn how to feed.

VIKKI: 01:03:35

I need to like changing diapers or getting them to doctor's appointments,

VIKKI: 01:03:42

booking the appointments, going to the appointment, like getting

VIKKI: 01:03:45

prepared to go to the appointment.

VIKKI: 01:03:47

That's all executive functioning.

VIKKI: 01:03:51

Interacting in social situations, mum and baby groups.

VIKKI: 01:03:55

I can tell you now, I was never in one single mum and baby group.

VIKKI: 01:03:59

I attempted to do like a mum group on Facebook and I just couldn't cope.

VIKKI: 01:04:05

Like it was just too much, like too many messages and too many people and

VIKKI: 01:04:09

too many, you know, fears and concerns.

VIKKI: 01:04:12

And I'm soaking all of this up.

VIKKI: 01:04:14

I couldn't do it.

VIKKI: 01:04:15

And for years I was like, what is wrong with me?

VIKKI: 01:04:18

Like, am I missing like the mum gene?

VIKKI: 01:04:21

Like I'm just not a good mum that I don't want to be like,

VIKKI: 01:04:25

I have like two mum friends.

VIKKI: 01:04:27

Like I know like two mums from my kid's school.

VIKKI: 01:04:30

I'm not that mum that like knows all the mums in the school

VIKKI: 01:04:34

or all the parents, right?

VIKKI: 01:04:35

And that's okay.

VIKKI: 01:04:36

That's fine

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:04:38

Yes, it is...

VIKKI: 01:04:39

You don't have to be part of the PTA!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:04:41

Right, Right, Right, except when like, people are

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:04:45

like, "Oh" -like not everyone reacts as nice as you, right- like simply like,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:04:49

"Oh, like you, you don't do that?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:04:51

Like, "no, I don't!"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:04:53

Anyways, so all of those things that are so overwhelming in parenting,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:04:58

it's like times a hundred when you have ADHD . And so even when my kids

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:05

started school, I was so overwhelmed.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:09

I had to pack their backpack and like, "We gotta put your

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:12

clothes out for the next day".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:14

Even though I was taking them to daycare before that, from when they

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:17

were a year old, it felt like the transition felt so hard for me.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:23

And transitions are hard for people with ADHD- now I know.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:27

And the panic and the fear and the paralisation.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:32

When you're like, "Oh my gosh, what does he need in his backpack?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:34

What do I put in his lunch?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:36

What do I do?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:36

And then God forbid if in the morning he's taking too long to get dressed

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:41

or, you know, the, the panic, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:44

Every morning.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:45

Like every morning.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:48

And so that's where parenting and ADHD, like, I see, it's, it's so

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:05:56

hard to cope and like, I just don't think we talk about it enough.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:00

And because of that, people don't get it.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:03

People don't understand, like, so that fear and that overwhelm you get

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:07

when you have a baby and you know, you're like, Oh my gosh, what do I do?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:11

And then eventually that goes away.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:13

That kind of stays with me, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:16

So yes, there's like a lot of places where I'm ' chill' and I'm like, "We're cool.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:20

We got this.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:20

It's all good."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:22

When my kids are sick, I don't know, I'm just like, "It's okay.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:25

We'll figure it out."

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:27

In other circumstances I'm not chill.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:31

And I think that'll be there forever.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:33

So I just think there's a lot of intersections with ADHD, mental

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:38

health, perinatal mental health and parenting that are so hard.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:43

I will say this Vikki that cooking and worrying about dinner

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:47

for so many years was torture.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:50

And again, before ADHD I was like, "what is wrong with me?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:53

Like what is the big deal?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:55

" Look at your friends, they cook like elaborate meals and they cook

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:06:59

proper food every day for their kids.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:01

Like why can't you do that?!"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:03

And finally, like in the last year, my husband - he does a lot, he's amazing.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:08

And, and so he cooks a lot- and so I said, " Can we make an agreement

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:12

that you're in charge of dinner and I'm just taking it out of my mind?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:17

And he was like, "Okay".

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:19

And so now it's like officially everyone in the house knows that don't ask me

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:23

what's for dinner, cuz I don't know.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:25

And I will eat whatever's in front of me, it's fine, but that actually

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:31

cleared up so much brain space for me.

VIKKI: 01:07:34

Yeah - mental load.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:36

Yes!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:36

The mental load and took off so much stress off my plate.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:41

And again, it's like cooking, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:42

It's like, what's the big deal?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:43

For me it ruins my whole day.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:46

I'm thinking when I have a client at 9:00 AM you know, I'm in session.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:50

I'm like, "Oh shit, what am I gonna make for dinner?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:52

Oh, I didn't take the chicken out.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:54

Oh, now we can't have chicken.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:55

Now I have to pivot.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:57

And like, well what do I have that's thought out?"

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:07:59

or ...arggggh Vikki!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:08:00

Oh my God, I'm, I'm nodding furiously again and especially 'cause I'm

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:08:04

gonna have to pick Stanley up in like 15 minutes from football camp.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:08:08

One of his best mates is coming back who's um, got really unusual tastes

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:08:14

and I'm now feeling the sinking feeling of like, what am I going to feed them?

VIKKI: 01:08:19

This boy is such a lovely boy, but he'll, eat things like swordfish and

VIKKI: 01:08:23

spaghetti carbonara and stuff, but like, chips, baked potatoes, sandwiches, bread?

VIKKI: 01:08:30

No!

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:08:30

He has a very fancy palate!

VIKKI: 01:08:33

The first time he came back for a play date and it was

VIKKI: 01:08:35

like, "what do you like to eat?"

VIKKI: 01:08:37

And he was like, "Meat and sweets"!

VIKKI: 01:08:39

Now I'm vegetarian for a start, so...

VIKKI: 01:08:41

! Oh no it's like, yeah!

VIKKI: 01:08:44

Oh my God, I'd love to have you back.

VIKKI: 01:08:46

And I was gonna say, if anybody's listening and the whole thing about

VIKKI: 01:08:50

ADHD, whether it's parenting a child with ADHD or being a parent with

VIKKI: 01:08:56

ADHD, if this is resonating with you, please do get in touch with me, via

VIKKI: 01:09:00

'Blue MumDays@ gmail.com', because I'd love to have you back for maybe

VIKKI: 01:09:05

a Q and A or something like that?

VIKKI: 01:09:07

I think that would be so cool.

VIKKI: 01:09:09

And, um, thank you so much for, for educating me on this because I had

VIKKI: 01:09:13

no idea and I , you know, I really think so much resonates with me,

VIKKI: 01:09:22

of like what you've been saying.

VIKKI: 01:09:24

A lot of it really has sunk in.

VIKKI: 01:09:26

So thank you so much for being a great guest.

VIKKI: 01:09:29

can people get in touch with you?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:09:31

Um, so you can get in touch with me on Instagram.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:09:35

So at Perinatal Wellbeing underscore Ontario.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:09:40

You can also email me info@perinatalwellbeing.ca.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:09:46

Perinatal wellbeing.ca is the website.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:09:48

So that's all for my not-for-profit where, we try to provide like

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:09:52

low barrier, low cost services to people in the perinatal period

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:09:58

living with mental health struggles.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:00

I love connecting with people.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:02

If anyone has questions about my story or their story, like I'm so

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:06

open, like please get in touch.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:08

And Vikki, thank you so much for opening this discussion here because

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:13

I do believe it's so important.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:15

And I would come back every week if you wanted me to

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:18

because I love talking with you.

VIKKI: 01:10:20

I actually discovered you, Christine, through your podcast, which I

VIKKI: 01:10:24

just think is the most incredible listen.

VIKKI: 01:10:27

How can people listen to you?

VIKKI: 01:10:28

What's your podcast called?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:29

Yes.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:30

My gosh.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:30

Thank you for reminding me um, so it's called Perinatal Wellbeing, and I, I use

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:35

those terms because I wanna cover- this is my goal- I wanna cover everything.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:40

Like let's talk about every topic, you know, possible related to perinatal.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:46

Um, so we do have a lot of discussion around mental health, um, you know,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:50

mental health challenges and struggles, um, and, you know, different experiences,

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:10:56

loss, um, also talking about postpartum sexuality coming up soon, talking

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:02

about things like the pressures of sleep training and, and kind of

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:06

what that's looking like right now.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:08

That's a big thing right now in this space.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:11

Um, so yeah, just, just all different topics like that and

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:15

really at the heart of it, having people share their stories, right?

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:17

Like you and, um, you know, those real authentic stories.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:21

So we can hear that and say, "Yeah, me too.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:24

Oh my gosh.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:25

Like, I think I remember thinking that too, and I thought I was a bad mum and.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:31

Okay.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:31

Well maybe if it's a symptom, maybe I'm not a bad mum.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:34

Maybe it, it is just a symptom.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:36

Right.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:36

Someone else experienced it too."

VIKKI: 01:11:38

Hmm.

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: 01:11:38

so

VIKKI: 01:11:39

Yeah.

VIKKI: 01:11:40

And, and that's why it is so important to, to share our stories and, and normalize

VIKKI: 01:11:46

the conversation around it, that it's okay to have these feelings, especially the the

VIKKI: 01:11:50

frightening ones, like intrusive thoughts.

VIKKI: 01:11:53

Thank you so much., You've been such a fabulous guest.

VIKKI: 01:11:56

Thank you, Christine.

VIKKI: 01:11:58

CHRISTINE CUNNINGHAM: Thank you so much Vikki.

VIKKI: 01:12:02

If you've enjoyed this episode of Blue MumDays, please like and subscribe.

VIKKI: 01:12:07

It really does make the difference in helping other people find it,