Extreme Sickness, Intrusive Thoughts - Hyperemesis, Hallucinations and Healing: Sarah Edge (Part 2)

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:00

A ginger biscuit is not going to solve somebody vomiting 30 times a day!

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:04

Hyperemesis gravidarum, or H.G., is extreme sickness in pregnancy.

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:11

It's what Kate Middleton (Princess of Wales) had.

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:13

Extreme vomiting, but also really intense nausea.

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:17

It's much different to morning sickness.

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:20

Still remains probably one of the most difficult things I've ever been through.

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:25

And it is linked with experiencing postnatal depression and prenatal

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:30

anxiety and depression because it is a really serious condition.

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:33

It can be really difficult to communicate to people around you how much you

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:36

are suffering because people know it as "Oh, you have morning sickness."

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:40

It was really, ---really brutal.

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:42

And I believe that that experience not predicted my experience of

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:47

postnatal depression, but I feel like it had a major impact and I

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:50

think it certainly contributed to it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:53

Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life.

SARAH EDGE: 00:00:57

But for many mums, and dads, it can be the hardest, and at

SARAH EDGE: 00:01:00

times the darkest of places.

SARAH EDGE: 00:01:03

Welcome to Season 3 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone

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struggling with parenting.

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You need to know that you are not alone.

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And these awful feelings will not be with you forever.

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Just one word - all the stories shared here are from the heart.

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These are real conversations and may be triggering, so

SARAH EDGE: 00:01:24

please listen with discretion.

SARAH EDGE: 00:01:26

Your wellbeing is so important, so if you need to take a breather or stop listening,

SARAH EDGE: 00:01:32

please know that you can at any point.

SARAH EDGE: 00:01:35

Today's episode covers hyperemesis gravidarum (extreme sickness during

SARAH EDGE: 00:01:38

pregnancy), and feelings of suicide.

SARAH EDGE: 00:01:44

We will also signpost you to help in the show notes.

SARAH EDGE: 00:01:47

Thank you.

SARAH EDGE: 00:01:49

This episode was recorded ----- during the winter of 2022.

VIKKI: 00:01:53

Today's guest is Sarah Edge.

VIKKI: 00:01:55

Sarah is a perinatal specialist psychotherapist working in South

VIKKI: 00:01:59

Manchester, with a special interest in supporting women with infant-feeding

VIKKI: 00:02:04

guilt and trauma- usually following a period of difficulty breastfeeding.

VIKKI: 00:02:09

Sarah is a mum of two and suffered from anxiety following

VIKKI: 00:02:13

breastfeeding difficulties after the birth of her son, and P.N.D.

VIKKI: 00:02:16

(Postnatal Depression) and an adjustment disorder following

VIKKI: 00:02:19

the birth of her daughter.

VIKKI: 00:02:22

Writing has always been a part of Sarah's personal wellness.

VIKKI: 00:02:25

But after her experience of motherhood, she began to write professionally about

VIKKI: 00:02:30

perinatal mental health and infant feeding guilt and how to recover from this.

VIKKI: 00:02:36

Some of her work can be found at www.fedisbest.org and

VIKKI: 00:02:41

in Therapy Today magazine.

VIKKI: 00:02:44

Welcome to Blue MumDays - I'm so pleased to have you with us today Sarah.

SARAH EDGE: 00:02:48

Hi Vikki, hi.

SARAH EDGE: 00:02:49

I'm really excited to be here.

VIKKI: 00:02:51

So Sarah, can you tell us a little bit about how the experience

VIKKI: 00:02:55

was when you had your daughter?

SARAH EDGE: 00:02:58

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE: 00:02:58

So I know I spoke a little bit about my experience having my son, my first born.

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:04

It was really different having my daughter ... I suppose the first time I went into

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:08

it with maybe kind of like blissful naivety, because I didn't have a clue.

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:12

And then the second time I think I went in with this sort of confidence

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:17

of like, "Oh well I sort of know it's hard this time, it's going

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:20

to be different because of that".

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:23

You are often kind of prepped for the delivery's going to

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:25

be more straightforward, the second time you have a baby.

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:28

And I sort of thought that that would be the same for all sort

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:32

of areas of early motherhood.

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:35

I mean my pregnancy was very different with April, my daughter.

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:39

The birth was very different.

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:41

The immediate postpartum was different, not all of it worse,

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:45

you know, by any stretch.

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:46

But it did start on a difficult kind of foot, because I developed

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:50

hyperemesis (gravidarum) in pregnancy with my daughter.

VIKKI: 00:03:53

So what's that, for people who aren't familiar with the term?

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:56

Right, so hyperemesis gravidarum, or H.G., is extreme

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:01

sickness in pregnancy.

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:03

So a lot of people might know it because it's what Kate

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:06

Middleton (Princess of Wales) had.

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:07

So it's, I don't know exactly, I think it's suffered to some degree

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:11

in up to 3% of pregnancies, but I wouldn't want to be quoted on that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:16

Extreme vomiting, is the kind of like only way to describe it, but

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:20

also like really intense nausea.

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:23

It's much different to morning sickness.

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:26

I was signed off work for a number of weeks.

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:29

I didn't return to work until I was

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:33

17 or 18 weeks.

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:35

I was still vomiting at that point, but just a lot less.

VIKKI: 00:04:39

God you poor thing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:41

Yeah it was terrible.

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:42

It is one of - it still remains probably one of the most difficult

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:45

things I've ever been through.

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:48

And it is linked with experiencing postnatal depression and prenatal

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:53

anxiety and depression because it is a really serious condition.

SARAH EDGE: 00:04:56

And it can be really difficult to communicate to people around you how much

SARAH EDGE: 00:05:01

you are suffering because people know it as "Oh, you have morning sickness."

SARAH EDGE: 00:05:04

And I've had morning sickness.

SARAH EDGE: 00:05:06

I had morning sickness with my son.

SARAH EDGE: 00:05:08

And whilst it's absolutely vile, it's horrible, it's awful, it

SARAH EDGE: 00:05:12

isn't anything like having H.G.

SARAH EDGE: 00:05:14

- they're very, very different.

SARAH EDGE: 00:05:16

And it was, brutal.

SARAH EDGE: 00:05:18

I think that's the, the word I would use - it was brutal.

SARAH EDGE: 00:05:21

And I believe that that experience kind of set me off on a path of not predicted

SARAH EDGE: 00:05:29

my experience of postnatal depression, but I feel like it had a major impact and

SARAH EDGE: 00:05:33

I think it certainly contributed to it.

VIKKI: 00:05:36

I am not surprised.

VIKKI: 00:05:37

I mean, it sounds so utterly miserable.

VIKKI: 00:05:40

I was very lucky that I didn't have much morning sickness, but I know how

VIKKI: 00:05:44

debilitating it can be when you feel nauseous or you're constantly throwing up.

SARAH EDGE: 00:05:49

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:05:49

And how women who are going through H.G., how they can possibly

VIKKI: 00:05:56

carry on with their life and you had a little one to contend with at

VIKKI: 00:06:00

the same time, in terms of your son?

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:02

Yeah, I didn't carry on with my life, my life as I knew

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:05

it, and and how I was a mother to my son kind of completely stopped.

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:10

So I couldn't get out of bed, barely.

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:13

There was very little I could kind of eat or even smell.

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:16

I was being sick up to 30 times a day.

VIKKI: 00:06:20

My goodness.

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:21

Probably sometimes more than that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:23

It was really, really brutal.

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:25

My daughter was a wanted pregnancy, so I'd tried to get pregnant with her.

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:30

But I was certainly questioning whether I wanted to continue with the

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:33

pregnancy because the guilt I felt for my son - because his mother had

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:38

just kind of disappeared, I was a shell of a person in a bed, vomiting.

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:42

Yeah, it was really, really hard.

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:44

And I think it probably contributed to difficulties bonding.

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:48

I didn't feel the same in my pregnancy, kind of emotionally

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:51

towards my baby as I had with Jack.

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:54

So when I'd found out I was pregnant with Jack, I'd kind of felt instantly bonded.

SARAH EDGE: 00:06:59

I did talk to my bump.

SARAH EDGE: 00:07:01

I did sort of hold my bump.

SARAH EDGE: 00:07:02

I liked to watch him move while I was in the bath.

SARAH EDGE: 00:07:05

I don't remember having any of that with her.

SARAH EDGE: 00:07:08

I kind of just remember pregnancy being this really painful, horrible experience.

SARAH EDGE: 00:07:13

I mean, I never enjoyed it the first time, but there was certainly elements

SARAH EDGE: 00:07:17

that were nice and I don't feel like I had any of that the second time.

SARAH EDGE: 00:07:21

So that was kind of a big difference between the two, yeah.

VIKKI: 00:07:26

Again when we talk about expectations of pregnancy and what it's

VIKKI: 00:07:30

meant to be like and what we're sort of shown in the media and in social

VIKKI: 00:07:35

media, is this incredible, glowing, wonderful, just joyous looking woman,

VIKKI: 00:07:42

living her best life, her skin - the best condition it's ever been in!

VIKKI: 00:07:46

Whereas actually for a lot of us, we feel really frumpy.

VIKKI: 00:07:50

We might have piles or heartburn, sciatica...

VIKKI: 00:07:54

you know, it's not always rosey like that, is it?!

SARAH EDGE: 00:07:58

It's tough on a body!

VIKKI: 00:07:59

Yeah, yeah!

VIKKI: 00:08:00

And how were you able to help yourself feel better?

VIKKI: 00:08:04

Were you given treatment?

VIKKI: 00:08:05

Was there self-help things you could do?

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:09

Yes.

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:09

So, I had, an amazing G.P.

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:11

(General Practitioner/Doctor).

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:12

She was brilliant.

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:13

T hey signed me off work pretty much immediately.

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:16

They diagnosed me with H.G.

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:18

So there was no kind of "Oh suck it up, try bit of ginger".

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:22

I was taken really seriously and that was really important.

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:25

I was given medication.

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:26

So the first one that I was given - oh gosh, Cyclizine, I want to say?

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:33

- didn't do anything at all.

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:36

I'd actually gone to the doctors saying that I wasn't able to keep

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:40

water down, I was vomiting, there was blood in it, s o I was concerned there

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:44

was something wrong with my stomach.

VIKKI: 00:08:46

That must have frightening.

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:47

It was very frightening.

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:48

It was very painful on my throat, the stomach acid had kind of begun

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:52

to wear away at my oesophagus and it was that that was bleeding.

SARAH EDGE: 00:08:56

So it was that that I could see, which is better than it being something kind

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:01

of going on and there being blood in your stomach obviously, but it still

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:05

meant I needed to stop being sick.

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:06

And the medication that I'd previously been prescribed wasn't working.

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:10

I didn't feel any different.

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:11

So at that point they prescribed me Ondansetron and that did work.

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:17

It didn't stop me feeling sick, but it definitely stopped the

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:20

frequency of how often I was being sick, it made it much, much less.

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:27

So that did help, but it wasn't a miracle cure.

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:30

My energy levels were still through the floor.

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:33

I was still very sensitive to smells.

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:35

I also had this horrible symptom, very common with H.G., where

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:39

I was producing excess saliva.

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:43

Which sounds kind of weird, but to the point where you can't

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:48

keep it in your mouth I suppose, when you start to feel sick.

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:52

probably should warn people before they listen to this, especially

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:54

if they're feeling a bit unwell, maybe give this episode a miss!

SARAH EDGE: 00:09:58

But that kind of salvation you get before you're sick, it's like that to an extreme.

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:04

And I wasn't unable to kind of swallow it down because that would

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:07

just make me instantly vomit.

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:08

So I was walking around with empty coffee cups, kind of having

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:12

to spit into it constantly.

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:15

And it was really horrible.

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:16

And that's actually a really common symptom of H.G.

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:19

and can definitely be kind of an indicator if you've got something like

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:22

that going on to go and see a doctor.

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:25

But yeah, so symptoms like that kind of didn't improve until

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:28

I was probably about my third trimester when I stopped being sick.

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:32

Some people that suffer H.G.

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:33

are sick the entire way through, they're sick through labour.

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:37

Yeah, and I had it relatively mildly compared to how some

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:40

people suffer - I didn't end up in hospital, I didn't end up on a drip.

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:44

But it's a really serious condition and it can have huge implications

SARAH EDGE: 00:10:48

for the mother and for the baby.

VIKKI: 00:10:49

Hmm.

VIKKI: 00:10:49

Yeah, yeah.

VIKKI: 00:10:51

When you're pregnant, you are very careful about what you eat.

VIKKI: 00:10:56

You are very careful drinking lots of water, good nutrition.

VIKKI: 00:11:00

Presumably if you're being sick all the time, that nutrition isn't

VIKKI: 00:11:05

necessarily benefitting you or the baby.

VIKKI: 00:11:08

So...

VIKKI: 00:11:09

what was done to sort of help support the actual growing of

VIKKI: 00:11:13

the baby and your health as well?

SARAH EDGE: 00:11:16

So my baby was growing fine.

SARAH EDGE: 00:11:19

She was on the 50th centile, whilst I was kind of really vomiting, which

SARAH EDGE: 00:11:25

was a lot different to my son who was always on the kind of 99.9th.

SARAH EDGE: 00:11:31

He was always, he was always big!

SARAH EDGE: 00:11:33

And my daughter was kind of averaging around the 50th, but she was growing

SARAH EDGE: 00:11:37

steadily so they weren't too concerned.

SARAH EDGE: 00:11:40

I clearly was keeping enough calories in to sustain a pregnancy.

SARAH EDGE: 00:11:44

I wasn't putting on any weight, but I wasn't losing masses either.

SARAH EDGE: 00:11:48

Like some people lose a hell of a lot of weight.

SARAH EDGE: 00:11:50

But once I stopped vomiting, her weight hugely jumped.

SARAH EDGE: 00:11:54

So she then jumped up to like the 99th centile like my son had been,

SARAH EDGE: 00:11:58

so clearly she wasn't growing to her full potential or to what, you know,

SARAH EDGE: 00:12:04

she would've done had I been eating adequately the whole way through.

SARAH EDGE: 00:12:07

But actually babies born to H.G.

SARAH EDGE: 00:12:10

mothers are often really healthy.

SARAH EDGE: 00:12:12

That actually your kind of body prioritises the health of the baby and

SARAH EDGE: 00:12:18

will make sure that they get everything.

SARAH EDGE: 00:12:20

Both my children have been grown on crumpets and lemonade and

SARAH EDGE: 00:12:24

like not a single vegetable or (laughs) barely an orange juice!

SARAH EDGE: 00:12:29

And they're both fine!

VIKKI: 00:12:31

That's to reassure any mum going through that or any mum experiencing

VIKKI: 00:12:35

fussy eaters that they will survive!

SARAH EDGE: 00:12:38

They will!

SARAH EDGE: 00:12:39

They absolutely will.

VIKKI: 00:12:41

Do you have any advice for women who are going through this or

VIKKI: 00:12:45

who suspect they might have this?

SARAH EDGE: 00:12:48

I think it's to see your G.P.

SARAH EDGE: 00:12:50

as soon as possible, you don't need to wait for it to get worse.

SARAH EDGE: 00:12:53

I think there's this kind of expectation that, "Oh well if I am keeping something

SARAH EDGE: 00:12:58

down" or, you know, "I've not lost masses of weight, then it doesn't matter."

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:01

Of course it does because suffering matters.

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:03

The impact on you matters.

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:05

So to see your G.P.

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:07

But there's also a charity called Pregnancy Sickness

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:09

Support and they're wonderful.

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:11

They have peer support they can hook you up with, because it can be very difficult

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:15

to actually even go out to the doctors to even actually make an appointment.

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:20

And I mean, now we're kind of in the era of Zoom and things are available.

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:24

But there are kind of people that have been through it that

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:27

can offer peer support to you.

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:29

So there are places that can offer you that support.

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:32

And I think to also kind of just know that the response from everybody isn't

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:38

going to be great because there's a lot of misunderstanding about the condition.

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:42

So when you are speaking about it, it's kind of that if it feels like you can't

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:48

tolerate or cope with misunderstandings, to choose who you communicate with.

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:53

Because it can be really hard.

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:54

I find it really hard to have like suggestions like "try

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:57

ginger," kind of "Oh I ate ginger biscuits when I felt like that".

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:02

To try and say to somebody that "that's not what this is".

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:06

This is different - a ginger biscuit is not going to solve

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:09

somebody vomiting 30 times a day.

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:11

It might help if you're feeling sick as you wait to kind of ingest something

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:15

and get some food in your stomach.

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:17

You know absolutely, that can be appropriate and good

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:20

advice in some circumstances.

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:22

But if somebody is suffering from H.G., just don't even

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:25

mention the word ginger at all!

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:28

That would be my kind of best advice, but definitely speak to somebody.

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:31

There are people that understand what you're going through and

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:33

there are doctors that are really good at managing this condition.

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:37

And you can request, you know, if you go to a surgery that's got multiple G.P.s

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:41

you can say, " Can I request somebody that has experience in treating H.G.

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:45

or somebody that is experienced in kind of maternal physical health".

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:49

You can request to see somebody with that experience, that's

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:52

your right to to do that.

VIKKI: 00:14:55

That's really good advice.

VIKKI: 00:14:56

So thank you so much.

VIKKI: 00:14:58

And I'll make sure I put the link to Pregnancy Sickness Support

VIKKI: 00:15:02

in the show notes so that people can click on that link easily.

VIKKI: 00:15:06

But it might be with the best intentions, but it just goes to show that advice

VIKKI: 00:15:10

can be - unwarranted advice - can sometimes actually be quite harmful.

SARAH EDGE: 00:15:16

And absolutely, it is with the best intentions, you're

SARAH EDGE: 00:15:18

right, that nobody wants to kind of further cause suffering at all.

SARAH EDGE: 00:15:23

It comes from misunderstanding and from not enough information

SARAH EDGE: 00:15:27

about the condition.

VIKKI: 00:15:30

But then it also feeds into what we were saying before with

VIKKI: 00:15:33

your experience with your son.

VIKKI: 00:15:35

It invalidates, you know, unwittingly invalidates your experience and the

VIKKI: 00:15:41

extremity of what you're going through.

VIKKI: 00:15:44

And I can see how that would have a harmful psychological effect

VIKKI: 00:15:49

when you are, you know, if you are battling something entirely different.

VIKKI: 00:15:53

So with your daughter, I mean, it sounds like a very, very tough pregnancy.

VIKKI: 00:15:58

Really tough pregnancy.

VIKKI: 00:16:01

How was your relationship with your husband at that time?

VIKKI: 00:16:04

Was he very supportive?

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:06

Yeah, he was amazing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:08

I can't fault him.

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:09

It was really tough on him, he basically had to do everything.

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:13

My mum was coming up a lot to help take care of Jack.

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:16

He was kind of going into extra days of nursery.

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:20

I cannot imagine what it would be like to have multiple children and have

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:25

a condition like that, or not have a supportive partner or family around

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:30

that can kind of pick up that slack.

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:32

I certainly couldn't do it now, you know, with my two children,

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:36

that would be impossibly hard.

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:38

But it did impact our relationship and it kind of massively changed the dynamic.

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:42

I wasn't used to being sort of needing looking after.

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:46

It was very, it was very frustrating.

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:49

I think frustrating is the word I would kind of use to describe my whole

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:52

experience in motherhood - that I felt frustrated a lot of the time.

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:59

I suppose the feeling held back or not capable or, yeah, the vulnerability being

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:07

really scary and really not, not pleasant.

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:11

And it absolutely put a strain on you know, my husband.

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:14

His job at the time were not supportive - they didn't get

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:19

it, they didn't try to get it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:21

It was a really difficult time for us.

VIKKI: 00:17:23

I think what you said just then really resonated in terms of being

VIKKI: 00:17:27

frustrated when you're not well and I think a lot of us mums, we tend to be

VIKKI: 00:17:31

'doers' and we're so used to doing and achieving, that it's actually very hard

VIKKI: 00:17:37

for us to be incapacitated and actually accept that we are going to have to just

VIKKI: 00:17:43

take some time out and not be constantly striving for something or actioning stuff.

VIKKI: 00:17:49

And again, it just goes to show how little understanding there is with employers and

VIKKI: 00:17:53

how actually a bit of support from your husband's employer would've made a huge

VIKKI: 00:17:59

difference to your family as a whole.

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:01

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:03

And my employer - perhaps not my employer as a whole - but

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:07

my immediate boss was amazing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:09

He couldn't have been any more supportive - they were sending flowers

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:13

to the house and messages saying, you know, "Get well, take your time."

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:18

He was - and my kind of team - were really, really supportive and

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:22

it does make a big difference.

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:23

I've got friends that have had to drag themselves into work because they're

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:30

afraid of losing their job, they're kind of being sick constantly at work.

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:35

It must be so, so hard to manage all of that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:40

But I think kind of what happened for me and my husband Nick, was

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:44

we were like "Everything is going to be okay once the baby's here."

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:48

And it was perhaps that building up that expectation that like

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:52

"This'll be the hard bit.

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:54

We've had our fair share now of kind of challenge, it's all going to be

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:59

fine once she's here" and perhaps setting ourselves up for really high

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:03

expectations and kind of not considering that actually after a period of ill

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:07

health or difficulty, that you need some recovery time, that actually...

VIKKI: 00:19:13

Totally!

VIKKI: 00:19:14

... SARAH EDGE: I hadn't kind of factored that in.

VIKKI: 00:19:15

It was almost like, "Well the day I stop being sick, I'll just carry on my life".

VIKKI: 00:19:20

And actually I found it really hard going back to work, I

VIKKI: 00:19:22

really struggled with work.

VIKKI: 00:19:24

I kind of was desperate to go on maternity leave, I just

VIKKI: 00:19:27

thought "I can't hack this".

VIKKI: 00:19:29

Yeah, so it was, a really tough time and I'd kind of massively built up in

VIKKI: 00:19:32

my head that "Once the baby's here, everything is just going to be okay."

VIKKI: 00:19:39

And you know, you'd had your experience with Jack with the

VIKKI: 00:19:42

breastfeeding, and knowing that it's okay to go onto formula if

VIKKI: 00:19:46

you are really, really struggling.

VIKKI: 00:19:48

So what happened then, because you are obviously leading up to a

VIKKI: 00:19:54

difficult experience post-birth.

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:56

Yeah, so I did go into my second birth with more confidence.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:02

I'd had a positive birth the first time.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:04

There had been difficulties, but overall it was a positive experience.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:08

I wasn't frightened of childbirth.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:11

I felt like it was going to go more smoothly.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:13

Because I knew she was going to be my last baby after H.G.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:16

I was like "I'm not doing that again, ever!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:18

I knew she was going to be my last, so I kind of had got in my head like

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:22

"Oh, I'd really like the waterbirth.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:23

I'd really like the whale music".

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:26

But I was kind of managing my expectations.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:28

And with the feeding I felt really confident.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:31

So I went to the hospital with formula in my bag, with sterilised bottles in my bag.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:36

And when they asked me how I was feeding, I said "Well, I

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:39

am going to try and breastfeed.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:40

I would like to breastfeed."

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:41

But I was kind of really clear that the single hint of a problem, like anything

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:45

- the tiniest problem with the latch, anything - I was like, "I'm going to be

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:50

moving immediately to formula, because I can't take that experience again".

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:55

And actually they were very supportive of that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:58

They were like, " we'll help you to breastfeed."

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:00

And actually, kind of immediately after the birth, breastfeeding

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:04

was established very quickly.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:06

Her latch was really good.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:08

And so I was kind of quickly confident that "Oh, actually this is okay.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:13

I can do this".

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:14

And it almost sort of validated for me how difficult it had been with

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:17

Jack, because I'd seen then almost like how it's supposed to work.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:22

That actually when it does work it....

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:26

I mean obviously it can work after difficulties.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:29

And you know, the support being there is really, really important.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:33

But actually this didn't feel like an ordeal.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:35

It kind of felt natural.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:37

She latched, she fed, there wasn't excessive pain.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:40

She was gaining weight.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:42

That all felt okay.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:44

And I had my 'formula cupboard', I used to call it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:47

My backup, like my safety net.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:49

And I just had this cupboard like full of formula and bottles and I

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:53

used to like stare at it every day.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:55

And I'd be like, "If I need it, it's there and that's okay."

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:58

And I felt really sure of that and I never actually needed it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:02

Which was really lovely for me to be honest.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:06

It was a really healing experience and kind of, yeah, everything immediately

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:11

felt like it was going to be okay.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:13

I didn't have any rush of love when she was born, so I do remember

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:18

having this feeling of "Hmm, I don't really want to hold her."

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:20

I wanted my husband to hold her.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:23

But I didn't worry too much about it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:25

I was kind of like, yeah...

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:27

The birth was kind of painful and I sort of felt like I needed a

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:32

bit of a "Oh!", like a breather.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:34

And I didn't feel too concerned about that or about our bond.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:39

And actually for the first kind of six weeks, I would say I felt really good.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:44

So I felt like better than I'd felt like ever.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:48

In hindsight I can recognise that I kind of was on a bit of a high

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:52

and what comes up must come down.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:54

But I thought, "Oh, this is what it must feel like when you

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:58

have a kind of straightforward birth and breastfeeding is easy."

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:04

So I kind of put it down to that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:06

I was like, "Oh, well it must be that, and that must be why I feel so good."

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:10

But I wasn't kind of needing as much sleep.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:12

, I wasn't getting much because I had a newborn, but I didn't feel exhausted.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:15

So it was almost like "Oh!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:18

And a part of me was like, "Oh, is it something in the breastfeeding

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:21

that makes you like able to stay up all night without feeling tired?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:25

And all these kind of thoughts were going through my head and I was

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:28

like, "Oh no, actually I feel great".

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:30

But very, very quickly, so it didn't creep on me, almost...

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:34

my mood fell off the cliff.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:36

It was like, I kind of woke up one morning incredibly anxious,

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:41

yeah, like feeling really on edge and kind of absolutely convinced

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:45

that I was going to lose my mind.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:48

So for me, my anxiety very much centered around that I was really

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:55

worried that I'd got bipolar.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:57

Because there's a family history, but also I'd had this period of kind of high

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:03

... not manic, but I'd been in a good mood.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:05

And then now I was in this kind of real anxiety, depression and I was kind of

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:10

absolutely convinced that I was days away or hours away from a psychotic episode.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:16

So I've never had a psychotic episode, I don't know what it feels like to go

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:21

into one, but that kind of really severe anxiety I was experiencing, to

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:26

me felt like "This must be what the edge of a psychotic episode must feel like".

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:31

And I was kind of sure that I was going to lose grip on reality

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:35

and I was going to harm myself.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:38

I never kind of had the same worries with April about her.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:41

So with Jack I kind of worried about him, that he was going to die or that

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:45

he was going to starve or there was something going to happen to him.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:50

I didn't have that with her.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:51

She sort of felt weirdly very robust and she still sort of does,

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:56

and I never worried about her.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:57

The worries were all about my own health and my own mental I was really,

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:02

really concerned I was going to kind of lose my mind and then harm myself,

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:06

like that I would sort of lose my mind and jump off a bridge or lose

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:11

a grip on reality and crash the car.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:12

There was kind of all of these really horrendous, intrusive thoughts and anxiety

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:18

that would either kind of pin me to the bed being unable to move, it would be like

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:22

paralysing, or I would become incredibly restless and my only way I'd either have

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:28

to sort of pace about or I would drive.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:31

So I couldn't tolerate any whining or crying, that was kind

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:36

of what really would set me off.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:38

And, my son had been quite a calm baby with a temperament

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:41

that was, you know, mild and...

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:44

there's no such thing as kind of good and bad babies or easy babies.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:48

But he had a milder temperament and was less challenging.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:52

Whereas my daughter really knew how to make her needs known and communicate that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:57

And she still does!

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:58

She would kind of cry and she had a loud cry.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:02

And that would kind of really trigger off this anxiety.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:04

And I couldn't tolerate her crying.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:06

So if I drove around, she'd be more settled.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:10

So we'd sometimes kind of drive for hours and then we'd stop, I'd

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:14

feed her, we'd drive a bit more.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:17

and that probably went on...

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:18

I knew I was getting kind of worse and worse.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:21

It was probably over a couple of weeks that I began to become more

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:25

concerned about my mental health.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:28

I was hearing things as well.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:30

So I was hearing kind of sounds that - lots of parents do this, but like, can

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:34

think that they can hear their child crying - you know, when they're in

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:36

the shower or when they're downstairs.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:38

I was really getting that a lot.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:40

And also I was having kind of very mild visual hallucinations

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:46

that I was aware weren't real.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:49

I was imagining spiders walking down the wall.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:52

And I'm not scared of spiders, so I always find that that's a weird thing that I saw.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:56

Because you'd think if I was very anxious you'd see spiders because

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:59

you're sort of scared of spiders.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:01

But I'm not.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:02

Yeah, I was beginning to kind of see things that weren't

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:04

real, and I knew weren't real.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:06

So I was becoming increasingly concerned that, I suppose all of

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:10

this contributed to the fact that I was convinced "I'm losing my mind."

VIKKI: 00:27:15

It must have been so frightening for you.

VIKKI: 00:27:18

Can you sort of remember how it felt in the middle of the night when your

VIKKI: 00:27:22

daughter woke you up and she was crying?

VIKKI: 00:27:25

That sort of extreme feeling of anxiety?

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:30

Yeah, I suppose for me, the middle of the night wasn't the worst

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:35

time because my husband was there.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:38

And that was another kind of really key trigger.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:40

I didn't want to be left alone with my children.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:43

I was really frightened about being alone.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:45

So I would say I was worse during the day than I was at night, because

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:49

I was better if somebody was with me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:50

So actually kind of from the outside, if somebody was with me like a friend, or

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:55

you know, family member, they probably wouldn't have known I was that bad or

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:00

that what was going on inside was that disturbing to me or was to that level.

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:05

Because I was kind of much more relaxed if somebody was with me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:11

I really, really had this intense fear about being left alone.

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:15

But certainly I do remember that and I remember it with Jack, that kind of

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:19

feeling really anxious around sleep.

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:23

And then that feeling of when you're being woken up again, it kind

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:26

of, it just fills you with dread.

VIKKI: 00:28:29

You sort of go into that 'fight or flight', don't you?

VIKKI: 00:28:32

And your adrenaline's going, so no wonder you are even more exhausted

VIKKI: 00:28:37

and depleted because you are on such a state of high alert really.

VIKKI: 00:28:41

But I think that ' not wanting to be left alone' thing is

VIKKI: 00:28:45

probably a very common feeling.

VIKKI: 00:28:47

And one of the reasons why I committed to or decided to do

VIKKI: 00:28:52

this podcast was so that...

VIKKI: 00:28:54

Because I remember how it felt when my husband would go to work

VIKKI: 00:28:57

on a Monday morning and the whole week of being alone during the

VIKKI: 00:29:02

day stretched out in front of me.

VIKKI: 00:29:04

And I wanted there to be something for women like us to listen

VIKKI: 00:29:09

to every Monday if they were feeling low or isolated or alone.

VIKKI: 00:29:14

So an incredibly frightening experience for you, and it must

VIKKI: 00:29:19

have been very frightening to seek help if you were worried about the

VIKKI: 00:29:23

possibility you might have bipolar.

VIKKI: 00:29:25

So what happened?

VIKKI: 00:29:27

Did you speak to your G.P.?

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:29

How I got help was I'd spent a weekend afternoon driving

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:34

around kind of in one of those really restless, anxious states, convinced I

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:37

was about to have a psychotic episode.

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:40

And my daughter was like in the back of the car, kind of, you know, totally

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:43

oblivious - she was probably about 16 weeks old, maybe, something like that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:48

And I came back home and kind of entered the house and sort of

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:51

immediately said to my husband " I actually can't tolerate this.

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:55

Like, this feeling is intolerable.

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:57

Like, I'm going to do something to myself, I need to get help".

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:01

And I didn't even feel like it could wait until the Monday.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:05

So I actually drove to A and E (Accident and Emergency), and

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:08

thought "I'm going to tell somebody I'm in a mental health crisis" and

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:12

that was what I was experiencing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:15

And this was in the summer of 2020, so we were kind of in a lockdown.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:20

You know, all of those things definitely didn't help.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:23

And I arrived at A and E, crying my eyes out, kind of clearly

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:27

looking very distressed with an, an infant daughter, like in my arms.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:32

And I got to the doors of the hospital and a security guard

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:34

said, "What are you doing here?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:36

And I said, "I really want to speak to a health professional."

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:39

I kind of didn't really feel like I wanted to tell the security guard

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:42

that I was having suicidal thoughts.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:45

But yeah, they became quite sort of like, "Well you need to

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:48

tell us why you're here here.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:50

We're in a pandemic".

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:51

They were kind of kept sort of quite forcefully asking "What's wrong?

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:55

What's wrong?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:56

and looking kind of really concerned.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:58

And I was really frightened in that moment because I was really aware - you

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:01

know, I'm a professional, I've worked in child protection previously - I

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:05

was aware that I was this incredibly distressed woman, like clearly visibly

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:10

distressed, holding an infant in her arms.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:12

And I was like, "What do I do now?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:13

I don't want to go in because ... this isn't feeling safe.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:16

This isn't feeling like a good, helpful situation.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:19

But if I walk away, I was kind of aware that they potentially could

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:21

call the police to follow me with concerns the welfare of my child.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:26

So I was kind of stood there like trying to make this assessment

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:28

of "Oh my God, what do I do?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:29

I'm really regretting this decision now.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:31

Really worried about children's service is going to become involved.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:35

There are going to be other professionals contacted.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:38

But luckily, some health professionals had seen the kind of commotion at the doors

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:44

and sort of immediately brought me in.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:46

And there was a perinatal mental health specialist there on the day, which was,

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:51

I mean, I don't know what it would've been like without her, but I got a

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:55

better response with her being there.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:58

There was no kind of heavy handedness, there was no mention of like other

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:03

professionals or children's services.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:05

She talked to me about how what I was experiencing was anxiety and it actually

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:10

sounded like I was having a panic attack.

VIKKI: 00:32:12

Hmm.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:13

Which even instantly, that gave me some relief because you imagine

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:17

that panic attack is actually one of these episodes where you're kind of

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:21

rocking backwards and forwards and you feel like you can't breathe, or you're

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:23

going to die or have a heart attack.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:25

Whereas that wasn't what I was experiencing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:27

And it was also not over kind of a couple of minutes.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:30

Like I would have these episodes where they would last sort of hours.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:34

But she was explaining to me how you can have these episodes of, of panic or panic

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:39

attacks that last three to four hours.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:41

And clearly the way mine was manifesting was in this fear that I

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:45

was about to have a psychotic episode.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:47

Um, but she was really good because she said to me " People that are about to go

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:51

psychotic don't usually know that they're about to go psychotic because they've

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:55

lost that kind of grip on reality.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:57

So it suggests what you are experiencing is anxiety."

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:02

She was a mental health professional.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:03

She said to me, "I've been where you are".

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:06

I know what it's like.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:07

And I was met with so much empathy and so much understanding and non-judgment

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:13

. Because I was kind of begging to be admitted.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:15

So I was saying to them, "I need to go in a mother and baby unit.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:19

I can't tolerate feeling like this anymore.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:22

I can't manage like this anymore".

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:24

I kind of felt like I needed - not that a mother and baby unit is a break or a

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:30

holiday - but I felt like that way I would have somebody with me all the time and

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:35

I wouldn't solely responsible for April.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:38

So in the night I would be having like a full night's sleep.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:42

I wouldn't be the only person kind of responsible for her, for feeding her.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:47

I was really desperate.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:48

And she kind of basically said to me, "One, you're not unwell enough.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:53

And two, there isn't any space, even if I wanted to refer you".

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:58

She said, "I'm going to do an urgent referral to the

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:00

perinatal mental health team.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:02

They will contact you on Monday., which they did.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:04

And I kind of to them then about therapy and about medication and...

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:11

yeah.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:11

And it started, to get better.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:13

That was kind of my crisis pinnacle moment.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:16

But it did begin to get better after that.

VIKKI: 00:34:19

Hmm.

VIKKI: 00:34:19

That must have been such a mixture of emotions for you, because on one

VIKKI: 00:34:24

hand, the relief that you're not going to have a psychotic episode, or it's

VIKKI: 00:34:29

very unlikely, that it is anxiety.

VIKKI: 00:34:32

But also the disappointment that you couldn't be admitted.

VIKKI: 00:34:38

And, you know, it's something that I've, I've spoken with Dr.

VIKKI: 00:34:41

Andy Mayers about, in another episode where we talk about Mother

VIKKI: 00:34:44

and Baby Units and about how they have such an important role to play.

VIKKI: 00:34:49

But what happens to the mums who are still going through a very, very tough

VIKKI: 00:34:54

and traumatic time, but aren't ill enough to be admitted in that situation.

VIKKI: 00:35:00

And, you know, sometimes those gaps in care can be so alarming, even, you

VIKKI: 00:35:06

know, for you in that very vulnerable, very distressed state, holding out

VIKKI: 00:35:11

till Monday can be really tough.

VIKKI: 00:35:15

Or if you take antidepressants, they normally say "It's going to

VIKKI: 00:35:19

get worse for the first three weeks and then they'll start to work".

VIKKI: 00:35:23

Or "You might be seen in six to 18 months", depending how long the waiting

VIKKI: 00:35:29

list is for therapy or counselling.

VIKKI: 00:35:31

So, yeah, it's really tough people to sort of hang on in there.

VIKKI: 00:35:36

So, so what happened after that?

VIKKI: 00:35:41

Was it a gradual relaxation of that anxiety?

VIKKI: 00:35:45

Or how did it get better?

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:47

There was a bit of a process with medication.

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:52

So I agreed that I wanted medication after that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:56

I had a reluctance to, to take antidepressants, but I kind of knew

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:00

at that point that I needed to.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:02

But the first tablet that I was prescribed Sertraline and I took a dose of

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:10

that and had a really bad reaction to it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:14

Yeah, I couldn't stand up properly.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:17

I had this sort of like horrendous vertigo.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:19

I wasn't really sure if I was like laid down or stood up.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:22

I didn't sort of know where I was in kind of space.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:25

I'd lost my balance.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:26

I was having really extreme suicidal thoughts, and I think

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:33

it's quite a rare reaction, but it's not completely unheard of.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:36

When I spoke to the doctor, they said like, "Mmm, that's not

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:38

suitable medication for you."

VIKKI: 00:36:40

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:41

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:41

So what happened then was I was prescribed Fluoxetine, because it

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:46

tends to have less - well, this is how it's explained to me - that it has

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:50

kind of milder side effects, it also can be given in much smaller doses.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:54

So they make it in like an oral solution, which means it could

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:57

be administered in tiny doses and very, very gradually built up.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:01

And so that's what I did and that worked.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:05

And I began talking therapies.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:07

So I was having person-centered counselling at the same

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:11

time, and it was gradual, but there was an immediate relief.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:15

I'd say within a couple of weeks I could, you know, I wasn't

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:20

in any stretch kind of better.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:23

You know, I would struggle to say that I was 100% recovered or better now, I

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:28

think I'm still dealing with some of the after effects of that experience.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:32

But it did , I quickly knew that it was going to get better and

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:36

it did quickly begin to improve.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:40

But it was a long process.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:42

And it wasn't linear either.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:46

So it wasn't kind of, you know, from that crisis moment that it's just been

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:50

like this upward trajectory since then.

VIKKI: 00:37:52

I don't think it ever is, is it?

VIKKI: 00:37:54

It's...

VIKKI: 00:37:55

a massively jagged line, isn't it?

VIKKI: 00:37:58

Up and down.

VIKKI: 00:37:58

Up and down.

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:00

Yeah, hugely.

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:01

And there were definitely dips.

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:03

You know, there still is.

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:05

But I suppose I haven't felt as 'in crisis' as I felt

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:09

on that day since that day.

VIKKI: 00:38:13

And how would you describe your bond with your daughter now?

VIKKI: 00:38:17

Has that grown gradually over time?

VIKKI: 00:38:20

, SARAH EDGE: yeah, it grew over time.

VIKKI: 00:38:21

It took longer.

VIKKI: 00:38:22

It took longer than it had with Jack.

VIKKI: 00:38:25

I had this sort of instant sense of responsibility towards her, but the

VIKKI: 00:38:31

'love' feeling or the kind of "Oh I really love you" took longer to come.

VIKKI: 00:38:36

And this real sense of...

VIKKI: 00:38:37

because I, I was really worried when I was pregnant with her that I wasn't

VIKKI: 00:38:40

going to love her as much as I love Jack.

VIKKI: 00:38:42

Because I just couldn't imagine loving anybody as much as I love Jack.

VIKKI: 00:38:46

And so I was really frightened about that and about that kind of impacting her life.

VIKKI: 00:38:50

Like her being aware of the fact that I loved Jack more.

VIKKI: 00:38:53

And so when she was born and for a bit, I did love Jack more.

VIKKI: 00:38:58

Uh, that was really frightening because everybody had told me, "As

VIKKI: 00:39:00

soon as you lay eyes on her, that feeling will go, that will vanish.

VIKKI: 00:39:04

You know, you'll, you'll love her equally."

VIKKI: 00:39:06

And I was kind of like, "Oh no, I'm going to be like the one

VIKKI: 00:39:11

person that this happens to".

VIKKI: 00:39:13

And I was scared to kind of say that - it felt so, so mean.

VIKKI: 00:39:17

But there was a point - and I wonder how old she was, it's hard for me to

VIKKI: 00:39:20

remember - but as a baby, quite a few weeks in, where I did sort of look at

VIKKI: 00:39:25

her and think "No, I do love you the same now, I do know what they mean".

VIKKI: 00:39:30

But that definitely wasn't, it wasn't instant.

VIKKI: 00:39:33

But my bond with her is yeah, is, is, is great now, I love her.

VIKKI: 00:39:39

And watching her and Jack together, their bond is one of

VIKKI: 00:39:43

the loveliest things to watch.

VIKKI: 00:39:45

They just absolutely adore each other.

VIKKI: 00:39:47

And I kind of feel like what they have potentially missed out on

VIKKI: 00:39:52

in me, they've kind of gained in each other, if that makes sense?

VIKKI: 00:39:58

Yeah, totally.

VIKKI: 00:39:59

But it also sounds like they haven't missed out anything.

VIKKI: 00:40:02

With you, from everything you are saying.

VIKKI: 00:40:05

And I can totally relate to that, that sense of grieving, the time

VIKKI: 00:40:10

that you wished you'd been more open to the full experience of motherhood

VIKKI: 00:40:16

and the joyful side of that.

VIKKI: 00:40:19

But it sounds to me that they aren't lacking in any way, you know, and...

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:25

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:25

It felt like she was kind of very oblivious as a baby.

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:29

Like when I said to my husband on that day when I went to A and E, I said

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:33

"I'm going to have to go to the hospital."

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:34

Um, I knew I can't even have a breakdown in peace because she's

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:39

going have to come with me, because she wouldn't take a bottle!

VIKKI: 00:40:41

Yeah!

VIKKI: 00:40:42

(Laughs)

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:43

So I was literally breastfeeding her in A and

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:46

E, explaining that I felt on verge of a psychotic episode.

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:50

And she was completely like ignorant to the kind of chaos

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:55

or the crisis that was going on.

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:56

She was sort of smiling, it was like a day out.

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:58

We'd been in lockdown for most of her life.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:00

She was having a really nice day.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:02

She was smiling at all the nurses!

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:04

She the most settled she'd like ever been.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:06

She was having a lovely time, but just totally, yeah, totally

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:10

oblivious to kind of what I was...

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:12

of course she was oblivious, she was a baby!

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:15

But yeah, it does make me laugh still that even in the kind of

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:20

midst of a breakdown she was still with me, still attached to me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:25

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:41:26

Well, I'm sure that must rub off in terms of her adaptability

VIKKI: 00:41:30

and you probably don't have to tiptoe around her at night.

VIKKI: 00:41:34

She'll probably sleep through anything!

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:36

Yeah, actually, she a really good sleeper now.

VIKKI: 00:41:40

I'm so, so pleased.

VIKKI: 00:41:42

You know, you've made a recovery.

VIKKI: 00:41:44

I think with a lot of us, it's never quite a hundred percent recovery, that

VIKKI: 00:41:48

there's always parts of the experience that you still need to process or lots

VIKKI: 00:41:53

of emotional connections with that time.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:56

It's a trauma, isn't it?

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:58

And it's one we will live with.

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:00

We cannot undo that experience.

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:03

And there is, there is legitimate loss there, you know, that, you talked about

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:06

then that, that loss of it not being the experience you kind of wanted and that

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:11

the joyful part of motherhood, that really resonates with me because there was

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:15

no joy, there was just purely survival.

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:18

That's how I felt, like in that first year with April was just survive it,

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:22

just actually come out the other side.

VIKKI: 00:42:25

And for any Mums actually going through that now who are

VIKKI: 00:42:29

really struggling, it's okay.

VIKKI: 00:42:32

You know, don't put pressure on yourself to have all these incredible

VIKKI: 00:42:37

experiences with your child.

VIKKI: 00:42:38

And, you know, it is about survival and getting through it.

VIKKI: 00:42:44

And every day you get through it and keep going, keep going.

VIKKI: 00:42:48

But ask for help.

VIKKI: 00:42:49

Do get support.

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:50

Absolutely.

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:51

Ask for help.

VIKKI: 00:42:52

So you've actually taken your lived experience and that's

VIKKI: 00:42:56

actually really filtered into what you are doing with your work now.

VIKKI: 00:43:00

And the work you are doing with mums.

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:03

Yeah, so before I had my children, I was working as a

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:06

therapist and had been for years, but with children and families.

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:11

And after I had my son and that experience with infant feeding guilt and shame,

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:17

I kind of knew that perinatal mental health was an area I wanted to move

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:21

into, because I, I'd sort of said I wanted to have two children, and after

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:24

that I would go into private practice and focus on working with new mothers.

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:29

But after my experience of having April and having really lived experience of

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:34

postnatal depression and, this kind of just completely new experience of mental

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:44

health challenges, that kind of really cemented for me that I wanted to start

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:49

a practice that would've been useful for me, that I would've have wanted.

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:54

And I did have a wonderful therapist, but she wasn't a perinatal kind of specialist

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:01

or it wasn't a perinatal specific service, where what I offer, I exclusively work

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:07

with pre and postnatal mental health

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:11

Yeah, I love it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:13

It's been so rewarding to do.

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:16

And it was something that, to begin with, I was, I was a bit worried, well,

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:21

when kind of, you know, the N.H.S.

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:23

(National Health Service, U.K.) perinatal mental health services exist and N.H.S.

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:26

free counselling exists, how will this work in this space?

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:30

But actually I found that what still exists is the kind of stigma around mental

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:35

health and people worry about things being on doctor's records and things like that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:41

That actually people like taking ownership of their therapy and choosing

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:46

their therapist and say, "Actually I want somebody that has experience of this".

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:51

And somebody that kind of can say " It's okay to share those disturbing

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:55

thoughts or those things that you are really worried about sharing."

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:59

Because actually it's really, really hard to say, "I've

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:04

thought about harming myself.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:06

I worry that in the middle of the night I might harm my baby."

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:09

Like, those things are really terrifying to say.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:11

And if you can say them to somebody that gets it, that can tolerate it, can

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:16

hold it and feel safe, then actually you can begin to move forward and

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:21

kind of move on from this experience.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:24

But it is so important to have that non-judgmental and safe

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:29

space to work through those things.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:31

So it's you know, I didn't know whether I was going to get enough work

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:34

with, only working with, new mums.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:37

But actually I have, and yeah, it's been a really positive experience.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:42

It's been definitely part of my own kind of, I suppose, like pulling that silver

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:49

lining from your experience or sort of making good out of something bad.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:55

It's kind of felt important for me to do that because I'm now in a place where

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:58

I can say, "I'm glad it happened to me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:01

I'm glad I have that level of understanding.

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:04

I'm glad I have that level of empathy".

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:06

That I can work really effectively with women that are going through

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:09

the same thing and kind of give back following my own experience.

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:15

And I think I said to you before when we've, talked that this experience

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:19

has a hundred percent made me a better therapist, but it's actually

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:22

just made me a better person.

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:24

It's kind of changed my life in so many ways and whilst it has been incredibly

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:29

challenging, I wouldn't undo it now.

VIKKI: 00:46:33

It's amazing how many people have said exactly that same thing, and it, it

VIKKI: 00:46:39

was something I was reflecting on this morning about, you know, would I have it

VIKKI: 00:46:43

the other way that I'd never experienced the PND (Postnatal Depression)?

VIKKI: 00:46:47

And I really hope this offers a ray of light and a bit of hope to people that are

VIKKI: 00:46:51

going through it at the moment, that you will actually look back one day and think

VIKKI: 00:46:55

it's changed your life in a positive way.

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:58

Absolutely.

VIKKI: 00:47:00

How important was it for you, when you had your crisis moment

VIKKI: 00:47:03

with the perinatal mental health nurse at the hospital, for them to

VIKKI: 00:47:08

say to you, "I've been there too.

VIKKI: 00:47:11

I know what it's like."

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:12

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:12

It was a really big part of, I kind of instantly trusted her then, I kind

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:17

of knew that she could hold what I was was feeling and experiencing and that

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:23

she felt like this kind of safe person.

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:26

Because for me, certainly if I talk from my kind of own personal

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:29

experience, I had this real sense of "Unless you have been through this,

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:34

like how can you kind of hold it?

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:37

How can you understand it?

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:39

How can you help?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:40

I sort of had this real yeah, sense that I needed...

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:44

One, that I really felt like I needed to speak to women.

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:48

So I was requesting female doctors.

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:50

But also that it did help that she was a mum and that she had also

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:55

been through that and she 'got it'.

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:58

And actually I've had kind of similar feedback from my clients to say "It

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:02

has been immensely helpful for me to know that you do get it, that you do

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:08

know what it's like", or that "That kind of trauma I'm experiencing is

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:12

almost like reflected back in you.

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:14

I can see that that has been part of your experience".

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:18

And I think, you know, in everything we do, we bring who we are as people,

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:22

but I think that probably happens even more so, in kind of a therapist sense,

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:28

that we're often drawn to areas of work where we've been personally affected.

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:32

That kind of concept of the wounded healer is well known.

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:36

And I'm no different from that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:37

Like this became my niche.

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:39

And I think you do offer something kind of special when you have a

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:45

lived experience of something.

VIKKI: 00:48:47

What would you say to yourself, who was really going through it back then?

VIKKI: 00:48:53

What message would you have given yourself

VIKKI: 00:48:56

? SARAH EDGE: Wow, like trust the kind of process, Like

VIKKI: 00:49:01

patience - I don't have any!

VIKKI: 00:49:03

But to I suppose, kind of accept that it's a kind of long process.

VIKKI: 00:49:10

But that doesn't mean that you're going to intensely suffer for a long time.

VIKKI: 00:49:14

But that it is, it is a long process and almost like there's kind of not

VIKKI: 00:49:18

going to be this point where I...

VIKKI: 00:49:20

or it doesn't, maybe I'm not there yet.

VIKKI: 00:49:22

I don't know, like my daughter's two in April.

VIKKI: 00:49:25

But I don't feel like I could say "I'm 100% recovered" or there has been a

VIKKI: 00:49:29

point where I could say "It's gone now."

VIKKI: 00:49:32

It feels like something that I will manage on a long term.

VIKKI: 00:49:36

Perhaps kind of the rest of my life.

VIKKI: 00:49:38

I mean, I'm already worrying about menopause.

VIKKI: 00:49:40

I think, "God!", if this is what this has been like, I can't kind of face that!"

VIKKI: 00:49:47

Menopause is a massive ballache!

VIKKI: 00:49:49

(laughs).

VIKKI: 00:49:51

It's one of those things that's only just being talked about now, but Oh God.

VIKKI: 00:49:56

How our mums, and their mums generations and stuff, how they just coped with

VIKKI: 00:50:02

it all and didn't even mention?

VIKKI: 00:50:04

I mean, me and my friends, we're all about the hot flushes and

VIKKI: 00:50:07

the sweaty hugs of solidarity!

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:08

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:09

Yeah, You know, in my research and reading around perinatal mental health,

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:14

there's a word for the journey into motherhood and it's called Matrescence,

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:18

and it has a lot of similarities to adolescence and to the menopause.

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:23

That they are these kind of distinct periods of a woman's life.

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:26

Obviously not everybody has children.

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:28

But even kind of going through that 'being of a childbearing age' and either

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:33

deciding not to have children, trying to have children or having children has this

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:38

huge impact on who you are as a person.

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:42

And actually is this life stage that comes with it it is a lot of

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:46

difficulty and a lot of challenge and I think those conversations are

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:49

so important because actually what do we understand about these things?

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:54

So we think that motherhood is about having a baby, but there's

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:56

so much more to it than that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:57

And menopause is more than your period stopping, there's

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:00

so much more to it than that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:01

But there's so much missing in education or conversation.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:06

And this is why podcasts like this is so important, because they bring

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:09

the realities of what it's going to be like, you know, to either expecting

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:13

Mums, but also to people going through it, that they're not the only ones.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:17

And there is kind of light on the other side.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:20

Actually there is a life the other side of these dark times, where

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:24

you can experience joy in it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:26

And it can be a positive thing.

VIKKI: 00:51:30

But even knowing that you're not alone and that you are not

VIKKI: 00:51:33

going crazy, that these are actually parts of the illness and

VIKKI: 00:51:38

established parts of the illness and you know that it isn't something

VIKKI: 00:51:41

that you've brought upon yourself.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:44

There's almost a script,t isn't there like a PND script?

VIKKI: 00:51:47

Yeah!

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:48

It's like if say, "I'm going crazy, I'm losing my mind.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:51

I can't do this.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:52

I'm a failure as a mum.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:53

Like I'll never be okay.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:55

I'll never be alright."

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:56

I mean, all of these things, they're things that kind of probably every

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:00

mum has thought at some point, but if they're happening a lot, then

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:02

they could absolutely be an indicator that you are struggling with P.N.D.

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:05

(Postnatal Depression) and to talk to somebody and get some help.

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:08

You know, and actually in services like mine, but others that exist,

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:12

you don't have to have a diagnosis of postnatal depression to seek help.

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:17

You can contact a therapist to say, "I want to talk to somebody.

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:20

I kind of want to make sense of my experience."

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:22

And that's okay, you can do that without.

VIKKI: 00:52:26

Absolutely.

VIKKI: 00:52:28

Several women I know have sort of come forward to me, since I started the podcast

VIKKI: 00:52:32

and were saying "I was never diagnosed."

VIKKI: 00:52:34

They would almost feel shameful that, you know, "Oh, I wasn't really

VIKKI: 00:52:40

P.N.D., because I was never diagnosed."

VIKKI: 00:52:42

And it doesn't matter, you know, if you struggled or you felt a sense

VIKKI: 00:52:46

of loss or a sense of grief...

VIKKI: 00:52:49

you know, everybody's experience is legitimate and valid.

VIKKI: 00:52:53

And everybody's experience is different.

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:56

Yeah - there's not a blood test!

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:57

There's not a kind of conclusive test where they'll go, "We'll prick

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:00

your finger, we'll take some blood.

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:01

Yes, you've got P.N.D.; no you don't."

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:03

There's diagnostic criteria that describe a collection of symptoms.

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:07

And if you have experienced that, then it's possible that you've

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:10

experienced postnatal depression.

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:12

Some people like those labels and some people don't.

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:15

You don't need them to be deserving of support and of

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:18

treatment - you can have that without.

VIKKI: 00:53:21

That's a very good point you've made there.

VIKKI: 00:53:24

Our conversation over both these episodes has just been so inspiring.

VIKKI: 00:53:28

You've been such a fabulous guest and so much wisdom and also bravery

VIKKI: 00:53:34

in talking about your story.

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:37

Thank you so much for having me as a guest.

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:39

I've enjoyed it so much.

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:40

I think it's wonderful what you're doing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:43

You know I love listening to the podcast myself, so I was very

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:46

excited when you invited me on.

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:47

So thank you.

VIKKI: 00:53:48

Aw, thank you so much - thank you!

VIKKI: 00:53:51

The theme music is 'Sunrise Expedition' by Joseph MacDade.

VIKKI: 00:53:56

New episodes are released the first Monday of each month, available

VIKKI: 00:53:59

on all major podcast platforms.

VIKKI: 00:54:02

Hit follow to keep up with all the latest, and if you enjoy Blue MumDays, please

VIKKI: 00:54:06

leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.

VIKKI: 00:54:09

It helps more people to find us.

VIKKI: 00:54:11

Thank you so much.