Breastfeeding Trauma and Grief: Sarah Edge (Part 1)

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My son was really healthy and was doing really well.

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And they said, you know, "Do you want to try and feed him?"

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And I would say that was probably the moment that it all started to

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get difficult for me and for us

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I didn't know that you could have problems breastfeeding.

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I genuinely thought if you want to breastfeed, you put your baby

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to the breast and they feed.

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I just didn't feel like myself at all.

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Just sort of existing in this state of perpetual fear.

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I couldn't sleep.

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I was starting to think, you know, actually, "if I can't feed my baby,

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almost like what's the point of me?

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Well, that's my only role and if I can't fulfill that, then he

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literally doesn't need me".

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Like "anybody could feed him a bottle, anybody can feed him

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formula, he doesn't need me".

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And so much of my worth as a mum was wrapped up in this breastfeeding.

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Feeding is, you know, essential for human life.

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So if that's threatened or that's difficult, no wonder it

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results in a trauma response.

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We almost have in our mind that breastfeeding is what makes a

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"good mum" and a healthy baby.

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So when it doesn't go right, it's so hard.

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Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life.

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But for many mums, and dads, it can be the hardest, and at

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times the darkest of places.

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Welcome to Season 3 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone

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struggling with parenting.

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You need to know that you are not alone.

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And these awful feelings will not be with you forever.

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Just one word - all the stories shared here are from the heart.

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These are real conversations and may be triggering, so

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please listen with discretion.

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Your wellbeing is so important, so if you need to take a breather or stop listening,

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please know that you can at any point.

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Today's episode covers hyperemesis gravidarum (extreme sickness during

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pregnancy), birth trauma, neonatal intensive care, breastfeeding trauma

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feelings of suicide, and baby loss

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We will also signpost you to help in the show notes.

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Thank you.

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This episode was recorded ----- during the winter of 2022.

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Today's guest is Sarah Edge.

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Sarah is a perinatal specialist psychotherapist working in South

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Manchester, with a special interest in supporting women with infant-feeding

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guilt and trauma- usually following a period of difficulty breastfeeding.

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Sarah is a mum of two and suffered from anxiety following breastfeeding

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difficulties after the birth of her son, and PND and an adjustment disorder

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following the birth of her daughter.

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Writing has always been a part of Sarah's personal wellness.

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But after her experience of motherhood, she began to write professionally about

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perinatal mental health and infant feeding guilt and how to recover from this.

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Some of her work can be found at www.fedisbest.org and

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in Therapy Today magazine.

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She has also written a Maternal Mental Health Manual, which can

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be purchased from her website, www.maternalmentalhealthmanual.com.

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Welcome to Blue MumDays - I'm so pleased to have you with us today Sarah.

SARAH EDGE: 00:03:23

Hi Vikki, hi.

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I'm really excited to be here.

VIKKI: 00:03:26

So if we could start off first of all with your son and your experience

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of having him, and I think because we've got so much to cover - we'll

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split this episode into two parts.

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So we'll talk about your daughter in part two, but yeah, how was pregnancy for you?

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How was that experience?

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Yeah.

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Like it actually, it feels weird to kind of separate them out actually.

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And I think I've spent so much time, kind of, you know, my daughter's only two now.

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So kind of so much brain space and time thinking about her birth and my

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experience after her, yeah, it kind of feels sort of strange going back to the

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very beginning, but almost that's what kind of sets the foundation really of

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my, you know, experience into motherhood because he was my first, he was my eldest.

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And I think you go into it the first time with...

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a sort of blissful naivety that like, you know things happen, you know people can

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struggle with birth or pregnancy or...

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but I don't know, for me personally, I kind of felt like they

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sort of wouldn't happen to me.

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We'd only been married for a year at the time that I got pregnant with Jack, and

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he was - yeah, he was a bit of a surprise!

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But I was kind of just overwhelmed with excitement and joy when I found

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out I was having Jack . You know, I can remember seeing the two lines on the

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pregnancy test and just being like, "Oh!"

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Yeah, just so excited, so excited to tell people!

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Just, yeah, totally different to my experience having my daughter.

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I mean, that excitement was kind of short-lived when I suffered

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from quite extreme nausea in sickness in both of my pregnancies.

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With my daughter I was diagnosed with hyperemisis (gravidas), but with Jack

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I didn't have it as bad the first time.

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But I was more sick than average I would say - I felt shocking.

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And yeah, I found that really, really hard.

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Because I think in my mind, I had seen pregnancy to be this time

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in my life where I was gonna be kind of super healthy, super

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focused on myself and my baby.

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I'd kind of had these grand dreams of, you know, I was gonna be - I

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don't again, why would I think this?!

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- but I thought I was gonna be a 'CrossFit mum', I was gonna be doing all of this

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health and wellness stuff and kind of thought, you know, I wouldn't be drinking.

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So I was gonna be really the best version of me possible.

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So in my mind, I'd imagined this kind of super fit woman, which it just

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makes me laugh now because I think that's never been a version of me.

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So why I kind of thought I'd be a totally different person

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in pregnancy I don't know!

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But this, yeah, this version of me that was this shining example

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of health and and wellness.

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And actually the reality was 24 hours sort of laid down on a sofa

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with a bucket in my hands eating nothing but crumpets and lemonade!

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I couldn't have felt further away from healthy, I think if I'd tried.

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And then I developed like pelvic girdle pain had problems with my

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hips, so I was in quite a lot of pain.

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So yeah, the whole, the whole thing wasn't, I didn't, yeah, I

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didn't feel healthy I didn't feel kind of well or feel like myself.

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I was absolutely desperate for it to be over, the pregnancy.

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It was kind of like I really wanted my baby.

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I really wanted to get to the point where to me I was like,

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"all the struggle will be over."

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"Once this pregnancy is over it'll all be fine."

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Why do we put this sort of pressure and expectation on ourselves?

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And I wonder how much is influenced as well by - I don't know if you bought

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those 'Mother and Baby' magazines- but I, I bought them while I was pregnant

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and I just had this - yeah, this vision of me sort of wafting through corn

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fields in a Laura Ashley dress and...!

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Absolutely, yeah!

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The kind of the white sheer floral, like a hundred percent!

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Absolutely.

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And I kind of really thought that that would all be part of my pregnancy, but

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actually the thought of things like a photo shoot was so far away from

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like what I wanted, it was like, "no!"

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The thought of anybody taking photographs of me.

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I was really sensitive about the way I looked actually, that I was really...I'd

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kind of again- because you imagine and because we're, we're given imagery

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of like that pregnancy is "you look like your normal self, but just

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almost with a beach ball up your top".

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But that's not, that isn't how it goes.

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Actually here for me, the weight gain was kind of spread all over.

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I felt really like puffy in my face.

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I was so self-conscious and again, I'm not very tall and I've heard that

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that can kind of contribute to it, but I had a really, really big bump.

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And I suppose if you're quite short, there's only one way out for it to go.

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There's kind of no, there's no stretch!

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But I had people, strangers, and people I knew, constantly commenting

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on my size which I found so difficult.

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Um, yeah, and I felt so self-conscious and so shy in my body and you

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know, I constantly was asked like "Oh, have you got two in there?"

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And " Oh, you must not have long left!"

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The first time that was said to me I was 17 weeks pregnant,

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so it wasn't even halfway.

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And Oh yeah, the whole thing.

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I just remember thinking like, "God, I don't want photographs taken of me!"

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It makes me quite sad now because there aren't many photos of me pregnant and

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I'd love to sort of look at them now.

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But I hated any photo that was taken of me.

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I went into this really, really sensitive, vulnerable place that I

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kind of now recognise as part of the process of becoming a mother that you

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do go through or most women go through.

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That a sort of at some point feeling quite vulnerable, feeling quite sensitive.

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But for me that definitely started during pregnancy.

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And it was this really sort of new feeling, Pregnancy isn't

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an illness, but actually it does feel like one for some people.

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Like people can suffer all sorts of health problems during pregnancy.

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So there's all these kind of sayings or narratives that around that

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like, you know, "You're not ill, you're just pregnant", but actually

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your body is working extremely hard to do something that is actually

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extraordinary when you think about it.

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And you no wonder you're tired or don't feel your your best.

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But it's almost the expectation that you just carry on as normal, that you work as

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normal, that you feel the same as you did.

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I mean, for some lucky people I know that that is the way they experience

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pregnancy, but I would say that they're probably the exception and not the rule.

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It's a hard slog on the body and mind, and I don't think I was

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in any way prepared for that.

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I think what you are saying is incredibly relatable and I'm

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sure so many of my listeners will be like, "Oh my God, me too!"

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Because there is again, there's this silence about pregnancy if you're not

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enjoying it, because you are meant to feel the happiest you've ever felt

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in your life and glowing -your skin's meant to look radiant, your hair's meant

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to be glossy and all of these things.

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And so if you are not feeling like that, you can feel very alone and you can feel

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shame or even guilt for not enjoying it.

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For me, when they talk about the glow, are they

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meaning the sheen of sweat that's like permanently over my face?

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Because that was like ...I was permanently boiling hot, like absolutely

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boiling hot and I had this shared office at work and I would constantly

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be like, "Can we open the window?"

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And they were like looking at me like, "Are you joking?

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It's like absolutely freezing!", because I was heavily pregnant with

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Jack in the like autumn/ winter.

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But I was just permanently boiling and sweating and like I felt like

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I could smell myself all the time.

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That heightened sense of smell.

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So again, that kind of fed that insecurity of like, "I'm just this walking whale that

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stinks and is like pouring with sweat!"

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And probably the reality to other people didn't, you know, look like that.

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It was just kind of a pregnant version of me.

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But yeah, I felt like this walking beacon of disgustingness I suppose!

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That I kind of thought I would look like, you know, the H+M maternity

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models where, you know, they're not even pregnant, are they?

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They literally have just got a cast up their dress or top!

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But I kind of thought that I was going to look sweet and yeah, happy

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and maternal, and it just really, really wasn't like that at all.

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And I think, yeah, it's that 'expectations versus reality' I think can really...

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you know, the bigger the difference between them, the more unsettled

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you feel really, and more alone.

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Especially if you're looking around and seeing other people

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having these, what looks like on the surface, fabulous pregnancies.

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But there's this narrative isn't there as well.

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Like you need to be really grateful.

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And it's like, well, I can be both grateful that I'm pregnant and struggling-

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like they're not kind of mutually exclusive things, that they can co-exist.

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Totally.

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And I think, yeah, it's hard and it's complex and I think it's

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particularly complex then if you're having an experience like that, if you have

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struggled to get pregnant and then you are dealing with a pregnancy like that,

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you know, there's so many factors that influence our experience of pregnancy.

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You know, and I think actually right back to the beginning,

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like even pre-conception, that's where this process starts.

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But we kind of see that our experience of motherhood is kind of birth onwards,

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but I think you know, pregnancy is a big part of that and I think conception

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is a big part of that as well.

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And you experience trying to conceive and how all of these early experiences

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almost like set the foundation for what you experience later on.

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And I suppose for me, like to kind of sum it up, it's almost like nothing like

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I expected that, like those would be the words of how motherhood has been for me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:13:09

Yeah, it's been nothing like I expected it to be.

VIKKI: 00:13:12

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:13:13

And it's not helped by social media images of people like Beyoncé with

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this cascade of flowers behind her, and she's looking radiant and she's

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probably had like a team of 70 making her look so beautiful and radiant.

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And I'm so sorry that you had that experience, but two things for me that

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really come out from what you've been saying is that it's okay if you're not

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enjoying parts of the pregnancy, that that is fine and that is actually quite normal.

VIKKI: 00:13:39

It's just that we never really talk about it.

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And also about being much more mindful about how I treat other women who are

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pregnant, you know, because I know I've been in this situation where

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I've, "Oh, can I feel your bump?"

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Or, "Oh wow, you look so neat!"

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And even doing something that you think might be a compliment, actually

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it's really, really personal to talk about anybody's body shape at any

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time, but especially when they're pregnant and they're feeling even more

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vulnerable about their changing body.

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I think we need to be so much more mindful of how it feels to

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be on the receiving end of that.

VIKKI: 00:14:18

And thank you for that reminder, I think that's really invaluable.

SARAH EDGE: 00:14:22

Yeah, and I think you've kind of touched on

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something as well, haven't you?

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It's like because we live in a very kind of diet-centric world, we kind

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of think that like 'big is bad' and 'small is good', but actually it's

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that there's lots of women that can feel really sensitive about the size

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of their baby if they're very small.

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You know, people tell you "you're not eating enough," you know, and I know

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people that barely had any bump that had big, healthy sized babies at delivery.

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They're almost like the size of the bump, probably doesn't...it's not that, well,

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I don't know, but how much relationship there is between the size of the baby

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and the size of the bump or how much weight gain that the mum has had.

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You know what, I don't know.

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But actually that, yeah, that you can feel sensitive about all sorts of things.

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For me it was definitely about being called 'big' or about

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the size of me being big.

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I kind of probably would've loved somebody to describe me as

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'neat' that would have been nice!

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I mean no-one ever did!

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But for me personally that would have been nice, but then actually you don't know

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how people are experiencing their pregnancy.

VIKKI: 00:15:24

How was your birth experience, if you're okay talking about that?

VIKKI: 00:15:29

So difficult pregnancy, didn't feel great - did you have a set-in-stone birth plan?

VIKKI: 00:15:37

What was your expectation of what you wanted for your birth?

SARAH EDGE: 00:15:40

Yeah...so it wasn't rigid.

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You know, when I think about my birth, my birth wasn't traumatic and I don't kind

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of contribute it to any of the anxiety and stuff that I've experienced after.

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My ideal birth in my mind was gonna be in water.

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For me, I kind of wanted the waterbirth, I wanted nice music, I wanted low lights.

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I'd read all the hypnobirthing stuff.

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I'd bought the CDs.

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I'd done all of that.

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And I felt yeah, I felt quite confident going into the birth but I was also

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really kind of open-minded to if I needed drugs or needed pain relief,

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I was more than happy to take it.

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So I never had in my mind "I don't want any of that stuff".

SARAH EDGE: 00:16:22

Yeah, I think I had a loose birth plan that "if available

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to me, I'll have the water".

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But my heart wasn't kind of completely set on it.

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And to be honest, it's a good job I didn't have my heart set on any of those things

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because I went into labour at 36 weeks.

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So having spent the majority of my pregnancy being absolutely desperate

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for it to be over and kind of right at the end when I was really

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struggling with pelvic girdle pain.

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And I was going to this physio who was hugely helping actually.

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The relief I had once I started seeing her was massive, but I was

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still struggling to walk very far.

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I'd been signed off work early.

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I was kind of quite bored really at home.

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I'd literally gone through every Netflix series and you know, I

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felt really ready to have my baby.

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So I was actually kind of really excited when I went into labour at

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36 weeks and had naively thought that that would do, that was late

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enough that everything would be fine.

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And he was fine, but I kind of hadn't considered that being

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:18

late pre-term is still going to potentially bring up some curve balls.

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:24

Nobody on my mum's side, you know, maternal side of the family has ever

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:27

got to 40 weeks in their pregnancy.

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:29

So not everybody's kind of born, you know, actually prematurely,

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:33

it's most of them are over 37 weeks, but are before 40 weeks.

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:37

So, potentially it's some kind of family thing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:40

But yeah, I wasn't actually surprised when I went into labour.

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:44

And I felt, you know, felt ready.

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:46

I had things ready, I had my hospital bag packed, so we were kind of quite

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:48

excited when my waters broke, I was getting into bed and I felt the pop.

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:54

So I actually felt like a sensation and as I stood up, it was like

SARAH EDGE: 00:17:57

the movies, there was just like a gush of water just went absolutely

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:01

everywhere, like soaked the mattress...

VIKKI: 00:18:02

Oh my god!

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:02

All over the floor.

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:04

And I was like, "Oh yeah, my waters have gone!"

VIKKI: 00:18:06

So there was no doubt in your mind what had happened?

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:08

Absolutely under no doubt, it was "My waters have gone!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:12

And I obviously got to the hospital and they said, "Yeah a hundred

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:14

percent your waters have gone!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:16

They wanted to keep me in and I said like - because I hadn't actually started any

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:20

contractions, I hadn't gone into labour.

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:21

So it's quite unusual I think for your waters to break before your labour starts.

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:26

And they were kind of like, "Oh, we wanna keep you in."

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:28

And I was like, "Well what I would really like is if I could go home and

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:31

try and get labour started naturally, to avoid induction if I can."

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:36

They said, "What we'll do is ..." - because they're worried

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:38

once your waters have gone, you're prone to infection - they said, "Can

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:41

you come back in 24 hours and we'll start the induction process then.

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:46

And by later on that evening I was in the bath and starting to get things

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:52

that felt a bit more like what I expected a contraction would feel like.

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:55

And they were getting kind of closer together.

SARAH EDGE: 00:18:57

I still wasn't in any kind of pain or anything that I was, you know,

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:00

felt like I couldn't manage.

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:02

When I got back into hospital they examined me and they said, "Yeah,

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:05

you're three to four centimeters, so we'll kind of wait for a space

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:08

on Delivery and get you down."

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:10

I thought, "Gosh!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:11

Like, "this is amazing!

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:12

This is fine!

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:15

I can definitely do this!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:17

And

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:20

I can remember I really, really did wanna go in the water.

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:23

And they were like, "We can't let you go in the water because your waters have

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:25

gone and you're having a premature baby.

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:27

I know you are kind of late preterm and the baby's measuring big, but

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:30

you're still having a premature baby.

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:33

You do need to be now consultant-led and on a Delivery Suite and we

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:37

don't have birth pools there."

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:38

But they said, "I tell you what", they were really lovely these

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:40

midwives on the Antenatal Ward.

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:41

They said, "Shall we run you a bath?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:43

And I was like, "Yes, I' d feel really happy in the bath."

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:46

And they got me some gas and air, because things were starting to kind

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:48

of ramp up a bit, and left me in the bath for ages with this gas and air.

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:52

And I just kept topping the hot water up and I was really happy, I was kind

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:55

of really happy in that bathroom.

SARAH EDGE: 00:19:57

I sort of feel like, yeah, the moment I was made to leave that bathroom was

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:01

when things definitely didn't go wrong, but I was really happy in that bathroom

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:05

and I feel like had I been left in there I probably could have delivered my

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:09

baby in there, which they felt as well because I remember hearing them on the

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:13

phone saying like, "She's gonna end up having this baby in this bathroom,

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:17

please can you get a room on Delivery?

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:19

We can hear that it's getting closer."

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:20

And there was this weird moment when my husband went to the toilet and I had

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:27

this real urge to get out of the bath and lock the door and get back in and just

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:31

... VIKKI: wow

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:31

...be on my own.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:32

And I can remember them like knocking on the door, being like,

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:35

"Sarah, can you let us in now?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:36

Really quite like, "Open the door now!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:39

But I remember being like, "No!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:41

I'm actually really kind of happy in this dark space on my own.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:45

Which felt, yeah, kind of quite primal.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:48

This sort of primal urge to be alone in this kind of safe, enclosed space.

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:57

And I think, you know, had I been left I probably would've

SARAH EDGE: 00:20:59

delivered my baby in there.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:00

But I did eventually open the door.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:02

I suppose the rational side of my brain was like, they're kind of shouting at

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:06

me now from the other side of the door.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:07

And Nick was like, "Sarah, you need to open the door now!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:10

So I did and they got a room for me on Delivery and we went down.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:16

And I remember them saying to me like, " Can you sit down in this wheelchair?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:19

And I'm thinking like "No!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:20

Like "I feel like a baby's hanging out of me!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:22

It felt like his head was kind of right in between my legs.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:25

I was like "There's no way I can sit down!"

VIKKI: 00:21:26

I can't think of anything worse.

VIKKI: 00:21:27

I remember being - during my labour - sort of being made to lie down on my back

VIKKI: 00:21:33

on the bed, and that just felt like the last thing that I wanted to be doing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:38

Yeah, it just felt so unnatural.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:40

And I said to them, "I can get in the wheelchair if you let me go on my knees".

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:43

And they were like, "There is no way on earth we are wheeling you through the

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:46

hospital on your knees in a wheelchair".

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:48

So I said, "Well what's the alternative then?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:50

And they said, "Well, for you to walk".

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:52

And I was like, "Oh no I can do that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:53

I'll walk".

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:54

So every, you know, minute or so, I was like standing up against the

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:58

wall, having these contractions.

SARAH EDGE: 00:21:59

Why the Antenatal Ward was so far away from the Delivery Suite is beyond me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:04

It probably wasn't even that far.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:05

But in memory it feels like I trekked the entire length of a huge hospital!

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:10

We got to Delivery and they examined me again and they said

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:13

"You're seven centimetres."

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:14

And I was like, "Oh, I am starting to kind of struggle now.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:17

This is feeling hard."

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:18

And they said to me, "Your contractions aren't very strong

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:22

and they're also not very regular."

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:25

You know, when people talk about them kind of coming every couple of minutes

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:28

and lasting a certain amount of time, that wasn't really happening for me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:31

So I was having kind of quite long ones, but then having a huge break

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:34

and then having a very small one.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:36

And I was showing signs of I was developing an infection or had a

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:39

fever, that my contractions weren't gonna be strong enough for the kind

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:42

of pushing bit of delivering the baby.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:44

So their suggestion to me was, oxytocin, so the induction drip, even

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:49

though I was already in labour - to kind of regulate and speed up

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:52

the delivery process basically.

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:54

And also at the same time to give me an epidural, which I was kind of like,

SARAH EDGE: 00:22:59

"Yeah, I feel like I want that now."

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:02

And that was amazing actually.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:03

They put the epidural in and I had what was called a working epidural.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:06

So I could still feel my legs, I could still feel my contractions,

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:10

I just wasn't in any pain.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:11

I could feel all of the pressure.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:14

I just couldn't feel...yeah, it just didn't hurt.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:16

And I, I had a little nap.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:18

I was kind of chatting with the midwives and with Nick and yeah, really

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:22

excited about delivering my baby.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:25

I had a nap.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:26

And then they woke me up and they said, "You have got to 10

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:28

centimetres, it's time to push."

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:29

And I was like

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:32

"Okay then!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:33

Jack was born.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:34

and I remember them saying he was like the biggest premature baby they'd ever seen!

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:39

Everything felt really, yeah really good.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:41

And they delivered him, they put him on my chest.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:45

We were kind of blown away.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:47

I had that rush of love that people talk about, that actually is quite rare from my

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:53

experience as a perinatal psychotherapist.

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:56

That actually it's more common to kind of feel nothing or

SARAH EDGE: 00:23:59

indifferent or even kind of disgust.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:02

And I have had that experience too with my second.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:05

But with Jack I did have, I think because probably as well my delivery was so,

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:10

you know, quite straightforward and unproblematic and not traumatic that,

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:14

you know, I think that contributed to it being this really positive experience.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:17

So him actually being born was incredibly, yeah, incredibly joyful.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:23

And we didn't know we were having a boy, so it was really

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:24

exciting for them to tell us.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:27

And, you know, we chose a name and it was all very lovely, but it kind

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:31

of instantly took a bit of a turn.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:34

Like I kind of started vomiting really badly.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:37

And I couldn't hold him because I was just constantly being sick, which

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:40

was just horrible as well when you've kind of had a pregnancy full of that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:44

and I then suffered a postpartum haemorrhage.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:47

Um, yeah.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:49

Which,

VIKKI: 00:24:49

Oh my goodness.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:50

I don't really remember an awful lot to be

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:52

honest, I don't really remember it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:53

I know, you know, they were telling me and they were saying I was kind

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:55

of borderline blood transfusion.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:56

They kept asking me kind of, you know, how I was.

SARAH EDGE: 00:24:59

And I'd suffered a second degree tear that was sort of being stitched up and stuff.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:05

In my mind it was all happening at the same time, but I'm guessing they weren't

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:08

stitching whilst I was haemorrhaging..

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:10

That sounds impossible ! But also I had this experience of kind of really shaking.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:15

So I actually thought I was having a seizure.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:17

At one point I thought I was going to fall off the bed I was shaking so hard.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:20

And I said, "Am I having a seizure?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:21

And they were like, "No, your body's gone into shock, you know, you are okay".

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:27

And I was kind of reassured by that, but I do remember thinking like,

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:29

this doesn't feel like kind of the shaking you get when you're in a shock.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:33

I was kind of violently moving, and I'm absolutely convinced I was having

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:37

some sort of weird conscious seizure.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:40

But I think it just kind of shows the enormity of what your body's

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:43

gone through and how actually huge of a process giving birth is.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:48

And it's not only an emotional adjustment, it's kind of a physical one too.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:52

My body lost a lot of blood, I'd just delivered a baby.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:54

It was all a bit of a shock.

SARAH EDGE: 00:25:57

My son was really, was really healthy and was doing really well.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:01

Oh he was just perfect.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:02

I just loved him.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:04

He was gorgeous and they said, you know, "Do you want to try and feed him?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:07

And I would say that was probably the moment that it all started to

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:13

get difficult for me and for us.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:16

I put him to the breast and, you know, I'd never breasted a baby before.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:19

I didn't know what it would, what it would feel like, you know?

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:22

Now I know he wasn't feeding, and they were saying, you

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:25

know, his latch wasn't great.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:28

But he was transferring no milk, there was definitely no milk coming out.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:32

I was producing milk and it was kind of leaking out of me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:35

And so he was probably, you know, getting a taste, but he wasn't

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:39

actually transferring milk.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:41

But I didn't really know that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:42

Now I've breastfed my daughter.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:45

I kind of know that there is a, there's a particular feeling to - as

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:48

they latch and the transfer of milk - that you actually feel that

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:51

happening and it's quite a significant or like kind of powerful feeling,

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:56

whereas this definitely wasn't that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:26:58

So it was definitely nothing happening.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:01

And it's quite common that babies born sort of early struggle with,

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:05

because it takes a lot of energy to feed, which clearly he didn't have.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:09

And he started to kind of experience a drop in blood sugars and we were

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:13

transferred to the Postnatal Ward.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:16

One because obviously I'd had this haemorrhage, but they obviously

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:19

knew my baby was going to have to stay in because he was born early.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:22

So we were put under what was called a Transitional Care Team.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:25

So we had kind of doctors from NICU (Neonatal Intensive Care Unit) came

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:29

to visit us on the Postnatal Ward.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:32

So I was given a private room because we were gonna be having

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:34

doctors kind of coming in and out quite a lot which again was really

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:37

lovely and I was so grateful for.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:41

I kind of really didn't want to go onto a ward.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:43

I had this real thing about it of being like, "I don't really want

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:47

to be around lots of other people."

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:48

I kind of again just wanted to be alone with my partner and my baby.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:52

So we went onto the Postnatal Ward and we had lots of kind of teams

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:56

and stuff in and out checking Jack.

SARAH EDGE: 00:27:58

And we were also getting lots of help with feeding.

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:01

And they

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:05

were concerned basically he wasn't transferring enough milk, his

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:08

blood sugars were not improving.

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:11

They were very low and he had jaundice, quite severe jaundice,

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:16

so he would need some treatment.

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:18

So he started having phototherapy and I was advised to start what's called

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:23

triple feeding, because I was really clear that I wanted to breastfeed.

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:27

I had never, ever considered any other way of feeding my baby.

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:30

And I think this is kind of where you know, not that I went wrong, but I

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:35

think another example of my kind of naivety that I genuinely thought that

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:39

people that used formula had kind of made this really conscious choice

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:43

that that's what they wanted to do.

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:45

And, you know, for whatever reason and in my mind I was like,

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:50

"Well, I don't want to, I want to breastfeed, so that's what I will do."

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:54

I don't think at any point had I imagined that there was this kind of huge number

SARAH EDGE: 00:28:58

of women that had set out to breastfeed and had struggled to or had had problems

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:01

with that were now formula feeding.

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:03

It kind of in my mind was like, "Well, they chose to."

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:06

Now, you know, doing the work that I do you think, "God, how did I think that?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:10

I didn't know that you could have problems breastfeeding.

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:13

I know that sounds just absolutely kind of just sounds crazy, but I just thought

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:18

that like, it might be a bit painful.

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:21

Or, you know, a bit time consuming or getting up in the night but genuinely

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:24

thought if you want to breastfeed, you put your baby to the breast and they feed.

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:27

That was, you know how I kind of thought it happened and never had

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:31

considered other ways of feeding.

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:34

Certainly never heard of anything like triple feeding, which basically

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:37

is, I was, um, pumping milk because his latch wasn't great.

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:41

And then putting the milk into a bottle and then he was being kind of syringe

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:47

fed and cup fed by an infant feeding team, who were kind of trying to

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:52

make sure he was getting enough milk.

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:54

But I found that really hard to sit and watch somebody else feeding my baby

SARAH EDGE: 00:29:59

that it felt, it felt so unnatural.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:02

Still to this day, I struggle with hearing the sound of a breast pump.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:06

And I think this is when the kind of, you know, the problems for me

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:09

and my mental health sort of started.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:12

But we started this pumping and triple feeding and I was advised to set alarms,

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:17

because premature babies can be very sleepy so they can sleep for longer

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:21

periods and they need to be fed more frequently because of their blood sugars.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:25

So I was setting alarms for every 90 minutes to make sure

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:27

he was fed every two hours.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:29

So I'd have to pump.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:30

You know I had my husband with me and he was doing all of the washing

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:33

and sterilising and everything that he could do, but it still was this

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:36

really long process that was just relentless and really, really hard.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:41

So we were in hospital for about five days.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:44

He was having his treatment for jaundice.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:45

He went just below the kind of treatment line, and they said to

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:49

me "We think that you can go home".

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:50

They did say to me "We think it's very likely that he is going to

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:56

rebound and need to come back in for more jaundice treatment.

SARAH EDGE: 00:30:59

But you are now well enough to go home and we think that you might get two days,

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:03

three days, at home with your baby".

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:05

I felt so nervous about the thought of that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:07

I didn't really want to go home.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:09

The hospital for me felt like this kind of...

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:13

yeah, it felt like a safe place.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:15

Not necessarily for me, but certainly for my baby.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:17

And it felt weird to me that how can one minute him be having all of this treatment

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:22

- and he was sleeping with a breathing monitor and things on, because he'd been

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:25

born early to then having nothing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:27

To then being in a normal cot or...

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:29

that just felt, yeah, it felt so weird to go from all of the wires and the

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:33

lights and, you know, he wasn't in full kind of NICU incubator or anything like

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:38

that, but he still had monitors and things measuring heart rate and, you

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:42

know, regular checks and stuff like that.

VIKKI: 00:31:44

Did you feel stressed about the responsibility?

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:48

Yes.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:49

Overwhelmed.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:50

Overwhelmed by the responsibility.

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:51

Like it felt like this...

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:53

yeah, I think actually, I think, yeah, responsibility is probably the word

SARAH EDGE: 00:31:56

that really fits what it felt like, just this overwhelming like, "Oh my

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:01

God, like how am I ever gonna sleep?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:04

because I was constantly waking in the hospital, to check.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:07

And I always thought that he wasn't gonna be breathing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:10

So I had this huge fear of SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome),

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:13

of cot death, like just massive.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:16

And I think that was compounded by the fact that there is a family history.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:21

So my mum had a brother who died as a

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:25

baby and it's kind of has, yeah, this family legacy of absolute fear

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:30

... VIKKI: I'm so sorry.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:30

...around sleep and breathing, which really, you know, given that Jack

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:35

was born with so many risk factors, like problems feeding, being born

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:39

early, being male, really was hard.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:41

So we went home.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:45

We didn't get two to three days.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:46

We got about 12 hours and then we ended up back in A+E (Accident + Emergency).

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:49

Jack had gone really orange, really floppy, he wasn't responsive.

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:52

Not unresponsive as in unconscious, but kind of when babies have jaundice

SARAH EDGE: 00:32:58

that's really quite severe they are very sleepy, lethargic, and, yeah floppy.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:03

Like, you know, if you lifted his arm up it would drop.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:06

Terrifying.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:06

Absolutely terrifying.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:08

We'd gone home and, you know, all these things here that kind of happened - our

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:11

heating wasn't working and it was December and it was freezing in our house.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:16

And I was just like, going about to have you what now I'd

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:19

recognise as a panic attack.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:20

But I was about to have some sort of kind of panic episode or anxiety attack and I

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:25

was like, "I can't stay in this house."

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:26

So we went over to my mother-in-laws, so that they could take care

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:30

of us really while we were kind of adjusting to being parents.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:34

And she'd had my husband and he'd been born early and he'd had severe jaundice.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:39

So she kind of recognised actually that, "Yeah, this doesn't look right."

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:44

So we went back to A+E (Accident + Emergency).

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:45

They obviously immediately admitted us onto the Children's Ward.

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:50

So we were on the Children's Ward and then we were there for over a week,

SARAH EDGE: 00:33:55

because it was like two weeks in hospital basically from the beginning of my labour

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:00

to the end with that brief gap where we were home or we were at her house.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:07

And that's I think, when the anxiety really, really began to ramp up for me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:11

So I just didn't feel like myself at all.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:15

I remember thinking like, "There's something wrong with me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:18

I don't feel normal."

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:21

That was the kind of...

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:24

just sort of existing in this state of perpetual fear.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:29

I couldn't sleep.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:30

I was so restless.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:32

Jack needed to be under this, these lamps he was having double phototherapy,

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:36

so he was lying on kind of one...

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:38

they're like little sunbeds basically.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:39

It was like kind of lying on a sunbed with a sunbed on top of him.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:42

And obviously it helps clear their jaundice.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:45

And I just couldn't leave him in there because I kept

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:47

thinking like "He's on his own.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:49

He's going to need to be held by his mum".

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:52

And obviously I'd read all of this stuff around hypnobirthing

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:55

and attachment and skin-to-skin.

SARAH EDGE: 00:34:58

So this felt so alien that like, I can't leave him in this

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:01

sort of incubator on his own.

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:03

And he wasn't distressed, he barely ever cried.

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:05

I mean, he didn't, I didn't really hear him cry until he was probably a month old.

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:09

And every time they came in I was holding him and they'd be like, "Oh,

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:14

we know that you really wanna hold him, but he needs some time in there

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:17

to kind of clear the jaundice."

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:19

And I was just going out of my mind.

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:21

So kind of every 90 minutes I was having so much help with feeding - I

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:24

was so lucky, because I know that that isn't the case for so many

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:26

women that are trying to breastfeed.

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:28

But I had this kind of specialist infant feeding team with me at every single feed.

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:33

So we were trying to attach him to the breast and trying nipple shields.

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:37

Then eventually kind of would revert back to the syringe or this cup

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:40

feeding, and eventually then on to bottle feeding him my breast milk.

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:45

And this deterioration in my mental health was rapid and kind of quick

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:49

onset and I really wasn't well.

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:52

And my husband phoned my mum and said - she'd been to visit us while

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:55

we're on the postnatal ward to see the baby and see how I was and all of that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:35:59

But rang her and said, you're gonna need to come.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:01

Like, I'm really, really worried about Sarah.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:04

It's so difficult cause it's so hard to remember properly as well.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:07

And it just feels like this huge blur.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:10

But I was terrified about my husband leaving me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:12

And they were really good to me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:15

They brought in a camp bed so that he chould stay.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:17

So he was there.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:18

I had my own bed as well on the Children's Ward.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:21

But the breastfeeding stuff kind of really...

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:24

yeah, started to become very difficult.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:27

So the sound of the pump was becoming incredibly triggering for me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:30

I was getting really upset and really kind of feeling quite agitated

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:34

and angry when I was on the pump.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:37

And when you'd go out in the morning to, because I was being kind of fed by

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:42

the Children's Ward, because they, they would say like, you know, "If you're

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:45

a breastfeeding mum, we feed you."

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:47

If you are, if you're not, basically you have to find your own food.

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:50

God, if I think about that now, I think God, how would I have ever managed to

SARAH EDGE: 00:36:55

support my own food when I was in this kind of state of just extreme anxiety.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:00

And yeah, I was just having such a hard time with it all and it hadn't

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:05

even occurred to me until this consultant kind of came to see us and

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:09

was really concerned about Jack's blood sugars and his jaundice not clearing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:13

And suggested that whilst I also fed my pumped breast milk to him, that

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:18

also that he has to have some formula milk to help clear his blood sugars.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:22

And I was like, "Oh!

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:23

Is that a thing?".

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:24

It's like almost like I didn't even know formula was a thing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:26

It was so odd.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:27

It was like, "Oh yeah, there is an alternative way to feed a baby".

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:31

And as soon as he began to have that formula milk, we

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:34

just started to turn a corner.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:35

Like he became more alert, his blood sugar started clearing quickly.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:40

And he just seemed so much healthier and yeah, like I kind

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:45

of started to feel better as well.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:47

But I was still really torn with what I would do about the breastfeeding

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:51

because, you know, in my mind it was like that was what was best for my baby.

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:55

I don't think that now, but at the time I was really like, "You have

SARAH EDGE: 00:37:59

to breastfeed your children."

VIKKI: 00:38:01

Clearly there are huge arguments for why, you know, if you

VIKKI: 00:38:06

can do it, why it's a great thing.

VIKKI: 00:38:10

But for a lot of women it's really hard or really painful or...

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:16

It's how complex it is.

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:18

If we're like comparing, you know, purely milk on milk, and that's

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:22

when somebody's, you know, got enough in the first place that like,

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:25

yeah, it's more straightforward.

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:26

But actually when you begin to start to incorporate factors like the mother's

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:30

mental health and wellbeing, you know, and the situation Jack was in,

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:34

but like my milk wasn't clearing his jaundice, , you know, potentially it

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:38

would eventually, I don't know, do I?

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:39

But it becomes more complex than like...

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:42

I absolutely can't bear the 'breast is best' kind of message.

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:45

It's just so deductive and harmful.

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:49

I was really, really well looked after, on the Postnatal Ward and on

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:53

the Children's Ward, but it was quite often said to me, you know, like, "Oh

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:56

we look after our breastfeeding mums."

SARAH EDGE: 00:38:59

Which then the almost opposite messages to that is "We don't look

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:03

after our formula feeding mums."

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:05

So it was almost like I was treated as so special and we had so much help and

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:10

support because of the way I was feeding.

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:14

And I was struggling so much with it and I was just so desperate by that

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:19

point to kind of, well, I was torn.

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:21

I wanted to get home, but also I was just like, "I don't know how I'm going to go

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:24

home and continue to pump like this and feed like this" because they were worried

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:29

about this kind of nipple confusion.

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:31

So we're still doing all of this cup feeding, which I found

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:33

incredibly stressful as well.

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:35

Where basically you are literally using a cup and kind of very gently

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:39

sort of tipping it into baby's mouth.

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:40

So it takes, you know, it takes

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:43

forever, it takes ages!

VIKKI: 00:39:44

Were you still on a 90 minute cycle?

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:46

Yeah!

SARAH EDGE: 00:39:46

This whole time!

VIKKI: 00:39:46

Wow!

VIKKI: 00:39:46

My God.

VIKKI: 00:39:46

And that's, you know, it's hard enough even when you're getting help, but

VIKKI: 00:39:52

God, if you are on your own and you are going through that - so you are

VIKKI: 00:39:56

not getting any sleep, or if you are, it's like half an hour here or there.

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:00

Chronically sleep deprived and you know that a hundred

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:04

percent will have contributed.

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:05

You know, I've heard since that now there are kind of recommendations and

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:08

regulations on if you are advising triple feeding to a mum, to a parent,

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:13

that it's for like two or three days.

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:15

It's not for 10 days, you know, two weeks.

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:19

I was like kind of a wreck.

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:20

Like I can't even remember how I felt particularly and haven't got

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:25

any kind of clear concrete memories.

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:27

But I was just not right.

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:29

I was restless, I was agitated, I was pacing about, I was just in

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:33

kind of ... probably what at that time was the worst state my mental

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:38

health had maybe ever been in.

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:40

And I was starting to have suicidal thoughts.

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:43

I was starting to think, you know, actually, "if I can't feed my baby,

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:45

almost like what's the point of me?

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:47

Well, that's my only role and if I can't fulfill that, then he

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:51

literally doesn't need me".

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:52

Like "anybody could feed him a bottle, anybody can feed him

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:55

formula, he doesn't need me".

SARAH EDGE: 00:40:57

And so much of my worth as a mum was wrapped up in this breastfeeding.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:01

And I was just in a state.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:02

I was just in this absolute horrendous ... the anxiety is like just nothing

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:06

on earth I've ever experienced.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:09

And I was really convinced that I was gonna kind of almost

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:13

teeter over some sort of edge.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:14

Yeah I felt like I was gonna have some kind of psychotic

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:17

episode or lose grip on reality.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:20

Yeah, it was just awful.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:21

It just felt terrible.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:22

And my mother-in-law kind of saw me in this state and she basically

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:25

said she went, "Enough is enough, start feeding him formula".

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:29

And it was like a light went on in my mind of like, "Oh my God, that's an option!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:33

Like it hadn't even occurred to me that I could exclusively feed him formula and

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:38

that could be my choice and that could be what was best for us as a family.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:41

And it was this instant, almost like, "Oh, okay!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:46

And then we started doing that and obviously I could sleep because

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:50

my husband could do a feed.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:52

His jaundice kind of cleared really quickly.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:54

His blood sugars improved and we were discharged home.

SARAH EDGE: 00:41:57

And on the way out of the hospital, this lady from the infant feeding

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:00

team that had been so gorgeous to me, saw me when we were leaving

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:04

and she said "How are you doing?

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:05

How are you?

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:06

Good to see that you're going home".

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:07

I was kind of embarrassed to tell her, but I was like, "We've

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:10

decided to feed him formula".

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:12

And I'll never forget this - she said to me like, "Oh, thank goodness,

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:16

that baby was never gonna latch."

VIKKI: 00:42:17

What?!

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:17

I looked at at her her and was like, "What?!!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:24

So people have just watched me for two weeks - not on the verge of suicide, but

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:30

certainly having suicidal thoughts and being on the verge of a breakdown most

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:33

definitely - have watched me struggle for weeks and nobody actually thought I

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:39

was ever gonna be able to feed my baby.

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:42

Like, I just couldn't believe it!

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:44

I was just sort of like looking at her like one, that was incredibly kind

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:47

of validating that yes, I sort of had to make this choice, but also God,

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:52

I could have made it so much earlier!

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:55

All that you know, not physical pain, but excruciating kind of

SARAH EDGE: 00:42:58

emotional and psychological pain.

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:00

But actually, you know, in saying that, I'm almost glad that I have experienced

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:06

that because it's kind of, you know, it's influenced my career choices and

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:09

what I feel really passionate about, but also like, you know, it's made

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:13

me a better therapist definitely, but it's made me a much better person.

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:17

And you know now I have a much better understanding of the struggles that

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:21

women go through trying to feed and how actually breastfeeding trauma

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:24

and breastfeeding kind of shame...

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:27

and, you know, we call it guilt, but it's not guilt because guilt

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:30

implies you've done something wrong.

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:31

It's, it's a shame we're talking about.

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:33

It contributes to so much trauma but it's not recognised trauma.

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:37

Like with breastfeeding, it's actually really difficult for women

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:42

to get support or acknowledgement that what they've been through was traumatic.

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:46

You know, and I work with, with so many women that have had traumatic

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:48

breastfeeding experiences that really, really are truly traumatic.

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:53

And feeding is, you know, essential for human life.

SARAH EDGE: 00:43:57

So if that's threatened or that's difficult, no wonder it

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:01

results in a trauma response.

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:04

That actually it's really difficult and it's so complex because it's, you

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:07

know, it's about feeding your baby, but there's also all of these societal

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:10

expectations and narratives and stigma attached to feeding that makes it

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:15

incredibly difficult - that we almost have in our mind that breastfeeding is what

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:19

makes a "good mum" and a healthy baby.

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:22

So when it doesn't go right, it's so hard.

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:26

I kind of now wouldn't swap it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:28

So If I could go back and have Jack latch and attach to my

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:32

breast and breastfeed, I wouldn't.

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:35

Because I would still have those really closed minded,

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:39

rigid views on breastfeeding and formula feeding being choice.

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:44

And I'm glad I don't have that, I'm glad of my experience.

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:47

I know I've kind of made it sound like almost as I left the hospital and

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:51

started formula feeding I was better because I wasn't, it was a process.

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:54

Like the anxiety was around for a long, long time.

SARAH EDGE: 00:44:59

And I really struggled feeding in public.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:02

So I know, I know people talk about struggling with breastfeeding in public

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:06

and feeling, you know, embarrassed or shy about getting their boobs out.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:11

You know, for me, God, I'd have so happily got both of my boobs out rather

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:17

than have got a, a bottle of formula out, like, oh, the shame that I would feel.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:22

And this was so defensive, I was almost like ready and primed for a fight.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:26

I was almost like waiting for somebody to say something or to challenge me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:30

Like they, they never did.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:32

In fact, a lot of people would kind of say to me like, "Oh I formula

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:35

fed my children and you know, they're really healthy adults now."

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:38

Or "They're really clever" or would say things to kind of reassure

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:41

me, which was really lovely.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:43

You know, maybe they were picking up on this uncomfortableness that I had

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:47

but I didn't want anybody to know how I was feeding because it felt like it

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:52

didn't align with sort of my values.

SARAH EDGE: 00:45:55

It was almost like, as somebody that would describe myself as feminist,

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:00

it was almost like a feminist way of feeding to me was to breastfeed.

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:05

It was so hard and it was this really long process that kind

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:08

of, there were incremental points where it began to improve.

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:13

So one of them was around six months when he started to wean on to food and

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:18

so was relying less heavily on milk.

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:20

And then again at one when he moved off the boxes of baby formula.

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:26

Yeah, there was these kind of incremental points that it's began to improve

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:30

and I began to feel better about it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:31

And writing hugely helped me.

VIKKI: 00:46:34

Just that whole judgment.

VIKKI: 00:46:36

And It seems like you were very self judging?

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:39

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:39

And I'm very sensitive to judgment anyway as a person, so

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:42

I'm very sensitive to anything I perceive as criticism or judgment.

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:46

And I think this kind of like hugely triggered that already existing

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:51

thing inside me, but it really...

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:53

it kind of hooked onto it and it, you know, really went for it like it was...

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:58

it was massive for ages, for me.

SARAH EDGE: 00:46:59

I still, it still is this huge part of my life that actually breastfeeding...

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:04

um, you know, it's an actual joke with my friends that all I

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:07

do is bang on about breastfeeding!

VIKKI: 00:47:08

I feel like crying, just hearing you talk and, you know, I definitely

VIKKI: 00:47:14

struggled with breastfeeding trauma and guilt and shame and because Stanley

VIKKI: 00:47:20

was ...he wasn't premature, he was just term, but he was tiny (he was 5 pounds 11

VIKKI: 00:47:25

ounces), and the pressure I was put under.

VIKKI: 00:47:27

And again, that thing of what you were saying about Jack sort

VIKKI: 00:47:31

of, being sleepy, so I guess Stan was also sort of sleeping through.

VIKKI: 00:47:37

So one midwife was saying, "Don't wake a sleeping baby!"

VIKKI: 00:47:42

And then the other was like, "What do you mean you didn't

VIKKI: 00:47:44

feed them every two hours?!!"

VIKKI: 00:47:46

So you were damned whatever you did, it was the wrong thing!

VIKKI: 00:47:50

But...

SARAH EDGE: 00:47:50

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:47:50

...I just want to say for any woman who is going through that

VIKKI: 00:47:55

experience right now, who's maybe struggling with breastfeeding or feeling

VIKKI: 00:48:01

shame and even disgust that they're not able to feed their baby naturally.

VIKKI: 00:48:08

Please my God, don't you know!

VIKKI: 00:48:10

And, certainly in my postnatal depression support group, 90%

VIKKI: 00:48:14

of us had difficulties feeding.

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:18

Yeah.

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:19

It's this huge part of the postpartum experience and it's like, if, if things

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:24

go wrong, then it's incredibly difficult.

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:26

Because like what I was saying before, it's just this kind of ... It's absolutely

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:29

fundamental you need to feed your baby.

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:31

But it's so complex because I know I'm really aware that I'm making it sound

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:34

like the answer to breastfeeding trauma or to difficulties is to switch to

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:39

formula and that isn't what I'm saying.

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:40

I think for me, I was absolutely desperate for permission to stop.

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:45

I wasn't consciously aware of that, but as soon as I got it, I was like, "Oh my God!"

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:50

Like the relief, you know, was this instant feeling of "Oh my God, thank you,

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:54

somebody has given me permission to stop."

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:56

But I think it's really important to actually figure out which it

SARAH EDGE: 00:48:58

is - is it support to carry on, or is it permission to stop?

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:02

And they might change, you know, they might...

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:05

It might be support to carry on for a while and then be permission

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:08

to stop or, permission to combi or, you know, whatever it is.

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:13

It's about finding what's right for you and your family.

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:16

Because, you know, actually I work with, with women with all sorts of

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:19

different individual experiences and for some actually, it's really

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:22

hard when they really want to carry on and everybody around them's

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:25

telling them to just move to formula.

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:27

Kind of completely invalidating and not acknowledging their desire to

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:31

and how important it is to them.

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:32

So it's not, there isn't this one size fits all approach to working with it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:38

That actually it's, you know, it's about listening to people's individual

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:41

stories and recognising what they've experienced and where

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:45

they're at and what's right for them.

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:46

And really listening and understanding that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:49

I think that's what was kind of missing is that it didn't feel like

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:52

there was any avenue to actually say, "I'm finding this really hard."

SARAH EDGE: 00:49:57

Because people don't always talk about it, I didn't even know it was a thing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:01

I didn't even know other people struggled.

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:03

So I'd spent this night when I had been awake and couldn't

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:06

sort of get back to sleep.

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:08

And I began to write and I had my laptop out and I had Jack strapped

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:11

to my chest in a little sling thing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:13

And I began to write about my experience and I shared it online.

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:16

I shared it on my personal Facebook page and oh my God, the response that I got

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:22

was just unbelievable of people going like, "Oh - this is my experience".

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:27

"This is what I had", like "I had this too, thank you so much for sharing it."

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:29

People saying, "Can you make it public so I can share it with, you know,

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:33

with my friends and with my family?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:35

And still every so often get a request saying, "Oh, you wrote

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:38

this thing like years ago.

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:39

I'd love to share it with my friend who's having a hard time.

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:41

Can you send it to me?"

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:43

And it was just massive.

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:44

And to feel like it was that solidarity, it was like knowing that other

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:48

people were experiencing this thing of breastfeeding, having this huge

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:54

emotional and psychological impact on them that they had never, ever expected

SARAH EDGE: 00:50:58

or were in any way prepared for.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:01

And you know, I think that's what was so, yeah, so valuable for me is sort

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:06

of like, you know, not knowing that other people have suffered, but knowing

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:08

that actually what I was experiencing in response to this was, was normal.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:12

Because it kind of felt weird that like breastfeeding was so important to me

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:17

or become such a huge thing in my life.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:18

Or my inability

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:22

to be able to.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:23

So I was kind of plagued by it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:25

And you know, I'm not anymore.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:28

So I know that it can get better.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:30

But again, it's like we were talking about with things being a

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:33

process, it's not an instant thing.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:36

There's not a quick fix answer to it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:38

There's not a quick fix formula.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:39

Like formula doesn't necessarily fix the issue.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:42

Certainly not the kind of psychological one that it's so deeply complex, and so

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:49

important that we kind of listen to...

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:50

yeah, people's individual stories.

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:53

But, you know, it's actually just this huge thing in my life, that breastfeeding

SARAH EDGE: 00:51:59

has given me and taken away from me kind of so much and has become, yeah,

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:04

this really big part of my life.

VIKKI: 00:52:08

think what you were saying about people feeling invalidated - that

VIKKI: 00:52:12

can be deeply, deeply traumatising.

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:15

It can be traumatising in of itself, that actually,

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:18

that can be the traumatic bit.

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:20

You know, I work with so many women that actually at the time of

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:23

something - you know, potentially a birth trauma - felt well supported.

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:26

What was traumatising is how they were responded to after.

VIKKI: 00:52:28

Mmmm.

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:29

So people invalidating it or minimising it or saying, you know,

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:32

"that wasn't blood loss", "that wasn't trauma", "it could have been worse".

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:36

Or any of those things.

SARAH EDGE: 00:52:37

That that bit is what can be what's the traumatising bit.

VIKKI: 00:52:40

....creating the damage.

VIKKI: 00:52:42

And certainly in season one there is an episode on Birth Trauma, with Dr.

VIKKI: 00:52:47

Becca Moore of Make Birth Better.

VIKKI: 00:52:50

So if anybody's affected by that, please give that a listen.

VIKKI: 00:52:53

And also I talk with Dr.

VIKKI: 00:52:55

Ori Onabanjo about trauma as well.

VIKKI: 00:52:58

But I just think so many women will feel seen and heard and validated

VIKKI: 00:53:04

from what you've been saying and absolutely, nobody is saying that

VIKKI: 00:53:08

there's a right way of doing things or a wrong way of doing things.

VIKKI: 00:53:11

It's just very, individual, but the message is not to feel bad at whatever

VIKKI: 00:53:17

those circumstances are and that it's okay and that there is help.

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:21

Yeah, and to acknowledge it yourself I think.

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:25

You know, it can be really hard when, you know, even if yourself have suffered

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:28

birth trauma or something that is more widely recognised, you can feel

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:32

like, "Well I can't talk about this.

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:33

I can't, because it's not as bad" or " It wasn't as traumatic

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:36

as something like that".

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:37

But actually, you know, trauma's on a scale, and of course things

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:41

can always be, "We'd be worse" and "Things can always be better".

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:45

But it doesn't mean that it's not had an impact.

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:47

And I think to ignore it and push it down, it just doesn't help.

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:53

So to actually have someone that you can talk to about it, even if

SARAH EDGE: 00:53:57

it's kind of with yourself through a journal or something, it can be so

SARAH EDGE: 00:54:00

incredibly powerful to acknowledge that "Yeah, I had a hard time

SARAH EDGE: 00:54:04

and I've had a response to that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:54:07

And that's kind of really...

SARAH EDGE: 00:54:09

that's really normal."

VIKKI: 00:54:09

Yeah...

VIKKI: 00:54:09

and that it can be all sorts of mixed emotions.

SARAH EDGE: 00:54:13

Absolutely.

VIKKI: 00:54:14

Gosh life is complex and my God breastfeeding's complex and (laughs)...

SARAH EDGE: 00:54:18

Oh my god, yeah!

VIKKI: 00:54:18

Uh, just,

VIKKI: 00:54:21

reminds me of what Dr.

VIKKI: 00:54:23

Ori (Onabanjo) was saying, that you don't need a diagnosis to have somebody

VIKKI: 00:54:29

tell you something was traumatic.

VIKKI: 00:54:31

If you found it traumatic, it was traumatic.

VIKKI: 00:54:34

Full stop.

SARAH EDGE: 00:54:36

I couldn't agree with that more that the only person that gets

SARAH EDGE: 00:54:39

to decide if something was traumatic was the person that experienced it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:54:42

That it's not for somebody else to say whether it was or

SARAH EDGE: 00:54:45

not, you know, that's so true.

SARAH EDGE: 00:54:46

That actually, the definition of trauma is "a deeply distressing experience",

SARAH EDGE: 00:54:51

so many things come under that.

SARAH EDGE: 00:54:54

And I think what can be really unhelpful is being like, "Oh you

SARAH EDGE: 00:54:57

can only describe things like car accidents or war as trauma".

SARAH EDGE: 00:55:02

But actually, you know, so many things that happen to women and

SARAH EDGE: 00:55:06

families when they're having babies.

SARAH EDGE: 00:55:07

Like problems conceiving can be trauma, like pregnancies can be

SARAH EDGE: 00:55:12

traumatic - birth, loss, miscarriage.

SARAH EDGE: 00:55:15

There's so many things that women go through during this period of time that

SARAH EDGE: 00:55:18

can have the potential for trauma, but so many of them are minimised because

SARAH EDGE: 00:55:22

it's this expectation that this is going to be a wholly happy time in your life.

SARAH EDGE: 00:55:27

Obviously I've spoken about how things can coexist, that actually like the

SARAH EDGE: 00:55:31

birth and delivery of Jack was this moment of pure joy and happiness.

SARAH EDGE: 00:55:36

Finding out I was pregnant with him, I was so pleased.

SARAH EDGE: 00:55:40

But then there's still been things that have been difficult,

SARAH EDGE: 00:55:43

you know, along the way.

SARAH EDGE: 00:55:45

Breastfeeding particularly, that kind of obviously for me has stood out.

SARAH EDGE: 00:55:49

But we all have different individual experiences.

VIKKI: 00:55:52

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:55:53

And that it's you know, acknowledging those feelings.

VIKKI: 00:55:56

And just with you talking about baby loss and miscarriage and how for a

VIKKI: 00:56:02

lot of parents - because it doesn't just affect the birthing person, it

VIKKI: 00:56:07

affects you know, their partners.

VIKKI: 00:56:10

And it doesn't matter how far into the pregnancy you were - a loss is a loss and

VIKKI: 00:56:16

you need to be able to grieve that loss.

VIKKI: 00:56:18

And there's...

VIKKI: 00:56:19

this, ...this sort of misconception that if you have a miscarriage that

VIKKI: 00:56:24

it's like, "Oh well, just don't worry.

VIKKI: 00:56:26

You can get pregnant again".

VIKKI: 00:56:28

That you can just move on.

VIKKI: 00:56:29

"Sorry that happened, but just get on with it."

VIKKI: 00:56:32

No!

VIKKI: 00:56:32

It can be devastating.

VIKKI: 00:56:34

Absolutely devastating.

SARAH EDGE: 00:56:36

Absolutely.

SARAH EDGE: 00:56:38

And I think there's something isn't there about, if that again is an example

SARAH EDGE: 00:56:41

of something being invalidated or dismissed or minimised that, you know,

SARAH EDGE: 00:56:45

you said then it's about grief and it's about recognising when loss is loss.

SARAH EDGE: 00:56:48

And I think, you know, actually that applies to baby loss and to miscarriage,

SARAH EDGE: 00:56:53

but also to so many experiences in pregnancy or postpartum actually.

SARAH EDGE: 00:56:59

You not being able to breastfeed or not being able to feed as you

SARAH EDGE: 00:57:01

wanted is a loss and it's okay to grieve that loss and to recognise it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:57:06

And you know actually part of the grieving process is to acknowledge

SARAH EDGE: 00:57:10

that what you've experienced is loss and to go through that process.

SARAH EDGE: 00:57:13

And I think that's kind of, you know, what I would say to anyone that's

SARAH EDGE: 00:57:16

had problems breastfeeding, who's had a difficult time, is to acknowledge

SARAH EDGE: 00:57:19

it as such and to be able to say to yourself "Yeah, I lost something

SARAH EDGE: 00:57:23

and I'm allowed to be sad about it.

SARAH EDGE: 00:57:25

I'm allowed to be sad about the experience I had and to, to think

SARAH EDGE: 00:57:29

about it, to talk about it."

SARAH EDGE: 00:57:30

That that's okay.

SARAH EDGE: 00:57:31

And it's an important part of the process.

VIKKI: 00:57:34

Accepting, I guess.

VIKKI: 00:57:35

And I just wanted to say to anybody who worries that if they were to

VIKKI: 00:57:41

give up breastfeeding because they've had difficulties or trauma related

VIKKI: 00:57:46

to it, please don't ever think that you will lose the bond that you

VIKKI: 00:57:51

have with your baby, because that's something that I really worried about.

VIKKI: 00:57:54

I struggled on for seven months and...

SARAH EDGE: 00:57:57

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:57:57

...funnily enough, I was diagnosed with having postal depression by a

VIKKI: 00:58:01

breastfeeding counsellor, who saw it in me because she had been through it herself.

VIKKI: 00:58:07

And she was the one that said, "Look, give him formula at night."

VIKKI: 00:58:12

It took a lot of pressure off.

VIKKI: 00:58:15

But when I finally gave up breastfeeding, because I was having too many blocked

VIKKI: 00:58:20

ducts and mastitis and stuff like that, and I was in a lot of pain that I...

VIKKI: 00:58:25

and here I am, it's like I'm, I can hear myself justifying it and

VIKKI: 00:58:30

getting almost defensive because I feel, I still feel shame about that.

VIKKI: 00:58:35

But I, I was really worried that those wonderful moments of, you know,

VIKKI: 00:58:39

when it wasn't painful, breastfeeding Stanley was wonderful and I was really

VIKKI: 00:58:48

scared that I wouldn't have that bond of cuddling him in the same way

VIKKI: 00:58:52

that I had when I was feeding him.

VIKKI: 00:58:53

But that's nonsense.

VIKKI: 00:58:55

You know, it doesn't

VIKKI: 00:58:56

... SARAH EDGE: yeah.

VIKKI: 00:58:56

...change that

VIKKI: 00:58:59

at all..

SARAH EDGE: 00:58:59

Feeding a baby is wonderfully bonding however you do it and actually

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:04

it's gonna be more bonding if you are enjoying it, if you're both enjoying

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:08

it, if it feels good for both of you.

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:09

And actually, I had, I loved feeding Jack his bottles, you

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:13

know, how snuggling with him.

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:15

I was really anxious about the bond too and I wouldn't let anybody else feed him,

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:18

because I was kind of wanting to almost mimic that "well, if I was breastfeeding,

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:21

it would only be me feeding him".

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:23

But I did, I did let up on that and kind of, you know, let my husband have one

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:28

like evening feed so I could have a sleep!

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:30

But I, I really loved feeding him and watching him enjoy his bottles and being

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:34

all sleepy and yeah, that it doesn't, it doesn't in any way affect the bond.

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:40

You know, I've got two children, they were both fed differently and the bond with

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:43

one isn't different from the the other.

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:46

I love them both.

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:48

Yeah, I know what you said then about that kind of feeling like you

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:51

need to justify why you're feeding.

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:52

And I think no, that's something I'm aware I still do.

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:54

You know, I've almost spent, however long we've been an hour doing that to

SARAH EDGE: 00:59:58

you, like kind of setting the scene and, "Oh, he was born early" and this is,

SARAH EDGE: 01:00:02

you know, "This is how hard I've tried".

SARAH EDGE: 01:00:04

It's almost like it's okay if you've tried and it was too hard, but actually

SARAH EDGE: 01:00:08

it's okay if you just don't want to.

SARAH EDGE: 01:00:10

Like it's trying to normalise that, like, it's okay to listen

SARAH EDGE: 01:00:13

to yourself from the off.

SARAH EDGE: 01:00:15

If it's not for you, it's, that's fine.

SARAH EDGE: 01:00:17

Like I also kind of don't want to contribute to a narrative of, "Oh

SARAH EDGE: 01:00:21

well you can stop breastfeeding, but only if you've almost like

SARAH EDGE: 01:00:24

killed yourself in the process".

SARAH EDGE: 01:00:26

Like, no, you can

SARAH EDGE: 01:00:27

stop way before that point.

VIKKI: 01:00:29

You can combi combi feed as well.

VIKKI: 01:00:31

You know, there there's no, there's no shame in that.

VIKKI: 01:00:34

And certainly something that I found very reassuring when I did bottle feed

VIKKI: 01:00:39

was that the ability of knowing how much milk Stanley was getting, because

VIKKI: 01:00:45

again he was so small, there was this big pressure about, you know the

VIKKI: 01:00:50

angst of like " Which breast next?"

VIKKI: 01:00:52

And "Are you giving them enough of the different qualities of milk?"

VIKKI: 01:00:56

depending how long you breastfeed and "Do you switch breasts?"

VIKKI: 01:01:00

Oh God, you know, dream feeding and all those things.

VIKKI: 01:01:02

And the amount I'd

VIKKI: 01:01:07

beat myself up, you know, and, I would always worry about like, "was

VIKKI: 01:01:10

he getting enough quality milk?

VIKKI: 01:01:12

Was he getting enough milk?"

VIKKI: 01:01:13

And so to then be able to see exactly, know what volume he was taking

VIKKI: 01:01:19

was actually a huge relief for me.

VIKKI: 01:01:22

And it's so wonderful that you were able to get through this and to contemplate

VIKKI: 01:01:29

being able to have another child because I think for many of us who

VIKKI: 01:01:33

have been through postnatal depression or anxiety or postpartum psychosis or

VIKKI: 01:01:39

whatever you went through perinatally, there is that dilemma about can I

VIKKI: 01:01:44

risk going through another pregnancy?

SARAH EDGE: 01:01:48

Yeah, and I totally, totally relate to that because after

SARAH EDGE: 01:01:51

I had my daughter and I suffered, you know, kind of a lot worse after her,

SARAH EDGE: 01:01:55

and you think of the pandemic, and stuff kind of contributed to that.

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:00

But I know, you know, now I couldn't have any more children, like I

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:04

couldn't go through that again.

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:06

So it's almost like my experience with Jack was almost so kkind of

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:12

focused on the breastfeeding and sort of isolated to the breastfeeding,

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:17

and the rest of it was kind of okay.

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:19

It wasn't all-consuming.

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:21

I hadn't experienced postnatal depression, whereas, you know, now

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:25

I've experienced postnatal depression, know how all-consuming that is and

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:30

actually how difficult it would be to enter another pregnancy, you

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:35

know, having had that experience.

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:37

So I suppose that's kind of, you know, why it felt okay.

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:42

I mean, I definitely went in with a sort of feeling of breastfeeding,

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:46

feeling particularly sort of raw or like a difficult subject.

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:51

You know, I remember saying like, literally during my delivery, like, "I

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:54

will try and breastfeed but any hint of a problem and my bag is full of formula."

SARAH EDGE: 01:02:58

And I felt confident in that choice and sort of able to advocate for myself.

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:04

And I was incredibly lucky that the second time I didn't experience any

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:07

difficulties and she fed really well, and we went on to feed for a long time.

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:13

But it was, yeah, it was definitely this kind of anxiety before the second

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:19

pregnancy of almost like seeing the opportunity for a healing process of

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:23

feeding, but knowing that if I tried and it didn't happen, that it could

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:27

be potentially re-triggering again.

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:29

And I sort of had this thing in me as well, because I'd already started

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:32

to work with infant feeding grief and trauma, almost like I developed this

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:38

internal narrative of "I'm not going to be taken seriously by both sides

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:41

of the argument or of like, you know, people that are pro "Fed is Best"

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:48

and doing what's best for a family.

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:51

And then people that have a very breastfeeding heavy agenda.

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:55

I was almost like, I'm not going to be taken seriously in what

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:57

I do unless I've done both.

SARAH EDGE: 01:03:58

So I'd almost created this pressure myself to be like, "I need to have

SARAH EDGE: 01:04:03

had two different experiences".

SARAH EDGE: 01:04:05

So I need to have both formula fed and both breastfed to kind of satisfy,

SARAH EDGE: 01:04:09

you know, other people's sort of stuff like, you know, that you can't control.

SARAH EDGE: 01:04:14

But I had certainly developed that narrative of like, "Oh, I'm not

SARAH EDGE: 01:04:19

going to be, yeah, I'm not going to be taken seriously in what I do",

SARAH EDGE: 01:04:21

which now I'm like, "That's nonsense!"

SARAH EDGE: 01:04:24

But it really was around, so I think, you know, absolutely your experience

SARAH EDGE: 01:04:28

of the first time of going into motherhood, absolutely impacts your

SARAH EDGE: 01:04:32

decision either to have another, but also impacts if you do decide to do it.

SARAH EDGE: 01:04:38

But certainly had I had my daughter first and the experience of

SARAH EDGE: 01:04:42

postnatal depression I had with her, I wouldn't have had another baby

SARAH EDGE: 01:04:47

because of how difficult it was.

SARAH EDGE: 01:04:49

So, I do totally get it if it feels, yeah, too much to kind of

SARAH EDGE: 01:04:55

put yourself through all of that.

VIKKI: 01:04:56

Again, there's no right and wrong, you know, it's totally individual.

VIKKI: 01:05:03

And yeah, it's something that I will be talking about with Elaine

VIKKI: 01:05:07

Hanzak, about the, decision of whether to have another child after that.

VIKKI: 01:05:12

But happily, you did have your darling daughter.

VIKKI: 01:05:17

I'm so sorry that, you know, you had such a tough time with her in a very

VIKKI: 01:05:22

different way, and that's something that we'll talk about in the next episode.

VIKKI: 01:05:25

But for now, thank you so much for being so brave and honest and open.

VIKKI: 01:05:31

And is there a final message for anybody who's beating themselves

VIKKI: 01:05:36

up about feeding at the moment?

SARAH EDGE: 01:05:39

Oh, it's so hard, isn't it?

SARAH EDGE: 01:05:40

Because you just wanna say like, "Please don't!"

SARAH EDGE: 01:05:43

The journey you've been on and what you've been through, and to

SARAH EDGE: 01:05:47

show yourself some compassion.

SARAH EDGE: 01:05:49

Compassion is the antidote to trauma - experiencing compassion, you

SARAH EDGE: 01:05:54

feeling compassion, having it given to

SARAH EDGE: 01:05:56

you is what helps us heal.

SARAH EDGE: 01:05:58

And I think is to, yeah, to show yourself some and kind of recognise

SARAH EDGE: 01:06:01

that you've been through a tough time and that it is gonna get better.

SARAH EDGE: 01:06:05

There are gonna be points when you think less and less about feeding.

SARAH EDGE: 01:06:08

When you're in the thick of it, it feels like it consumes your whole mind.

SARAH EDGE: 01:06:12

But, you know, my son's five now, I mean, how often, you know, other than when

SARAH EDGE: 01:06:17

I'm doing things like this, how often do I think about the way he was fed?

SARAH EDGE: 01:06:20

Like, if I didn't do the work I would do, it would be barely ever!

SARAH EDGE: 01:06:24

So it does get better.

SARAH EDGE: 01:06:25

And it does feel easier to manage over time, but show yourself some compassion.

SARAH EDGE: 01:06:30

And know that you're not alone - whilst nobody's been through your exact kind

SARAH EDGE: 01:06:35

of individual experience, so many people have understanding and empathy for you.

VIKKI: 01:06:42

Thank you so much.

VIKKI: 01:06:42

And and for anybody that struggles with self-compassion, which I know

VIKKI: 01:06:47

a lot of us do, there are two episodes in Season One, with the

VIKKI: 01:06:53

incredible Poonam Dhuffer of Yes M8.

VIKKI: 01:06:56

And that's dedicated to self-compassion and why it's really important and

VIKKI: 01:07:00

why it's both necessary for you but also for the welfare of your family.

VIKKI: 01:07:05

So if you can't justify doing it for yourself, do it your family.

VIKKI: 01:07:10

And there's also a 15 minute 'Loving Kindness' Meditation that she

VIKKI: 01:07:14

has created especially for us.

VIKKI: 01:07:16

And you don't need to meditate, or if you've never meditated before and

VIKKI: 01:07:19

don't like the idea, all you have to do is just close your eyes and listen.

VIKKI: 01:07:23

You don't need to do anything else.

SARAH EDGE: 01:07:25

And it's lovely, I've listened to it.

SARAH EDGE: 01:07:27

it's really nice.

VIKKI: 01:07:27

Aw that's great feedback.

VIKKI: 01:07:30

So yeah, thank you so much Poonam for creating that for us.

VIKKI: 01:07:34

And, uh, thanks so much for being my guest today, Sarah.

VIKKI: 01:07:38

Look forward to carrying on the conversation for part two.

SARAH EDGE: 01:07:41

Oh, thank you for having me.

VIKKI: 01:07:45

The theme music is 'Sunrise Expedition' by Joseph MacDade.

VIKKI: 01:07:49

New episodes are released the first Monday of each month, available

VIKKI: 01:07:53

on all major podcast platforms.

VIKKI: 01:07:55

Hit follow to keep up with all the latest, and if you enjoy Blue MumDays, please

VIKKI: 01:08:00

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VIKKI: 01:08:02

It helps more people to find us.

VIKKI: 01:08:05

Thank you so much.