Episode 33
My Kids' Birth Unlocked My Childhood Trauma: NICK RAEBURN
I chat to Nick Raeburn, aka 'That Social Nerd'. Nick came to my attention in a very brave and raw LinkedIn post, where he talked about the huge flood of emotion he experienced in becoming a dad. Prior to having children, Nick had never cried - a result of the awful abuse he suffered as a child. This is a very emotional and deeply profound conversation; I don't think I've cried as much - or laughed as much - during an interview!
*TRIGGER WARNING: *Brief (but not graphic) early mention of Child Abuse, discussion of Trauma*
IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:
[00:00] Teaser quote.
[02:46] Introduction to Nick.
[03:42] How the birth of his daughter was the catalyst to unlocking his emotions.
[04:41] How Nick was helped through therapy and E.M.D.R. (Eye Movement Desensitisation Reprocessing).
[05:28] Lack of support during his childhood. Catharsis from expressing how he feels on social media.
[07:02] How the pandemic has affected attitudes to life and mental health.
[08:12] How Nick had buried the painful experiences of his childhood.
[09:28] Approaching fatherhood. The differences in the birth of his first and second child.
[12:46] Meeting his daughter for the first time. The importance of emotional intelligence.
[16:06] The unrelenting horror of sleep deprivation!
[21:54] The early days of having his newborn daughter at home.
[23:29] Feelings of anger, resulting from Nick's adverse childhood experiences.
[27:50] Owning his story and reclaiming his power.
[29:20] Fatherhood and masculinity. Discovering 'A Band of Brothers'. Mentorship.
[35:27] Recovery, including the E.M.D.R. therapy and mentoring other young men.
[43:00] How Nick has changed from the man his wife originally married.
[45:21] The importance of fathers engaging with their children - the 'First 1001 Days'.
[48:10] Nick's hopes for his son, going forward.
[50:06] Advice for those who have experienced abuse, but have never talked about it.
KEY TAKEAWAYS:
- Click here for more information on E.M.D.R., known as Eye Movement Desensitisation Reprocessing.
- Link to Rosey's website, 'PND and Me', founder of the #PND hour on Twitter.
- Listen to the Blue MumDays episode 'When Birth Leads to Trauma' with Dr Rebecca Moore. Find out more about charity 'Make Birth Better' here, Rebecca’s organisation for supporting parents and healthcare professionals suffering from birth trauma or vicarious trauma.
- Read more on the book 'The Body Keeps The Score' by Bessel Van Der Kolk, “mind, brain and body in the transformation of trauma”.
- This 'Loving Kindness Meditation' will help you relax, reset and recharge. It’s only 15 minutes long and you don’t have to meditate - just close your eyes and listen. There’s no pressure to do anything, but it might just help you to relax. (Thank you to Poonam Dhuffer of YSM8 for creating this specially for Blue MumDays.)
- Learn more about award-winning charity 'A Band of Brothers' by clicking on the link. They helped Nick enormously and now he mentors others through it. Its aim is to help young men grow and develop, improving their lives and that of the communities they live in.
- Further support for fathers can be found here: Fathers Reaching Out, Music Football Fatherhood, PMH Support, Dope Black Dads and Dad Matters.
- LISTEN: Blue MumDays S1 Ep 3 Elliott Rae on PTSD in Fathers.
- LISTEN: Blue MumDays S1 Ep 8 The Daddy Blues with Mark Williams and S1 Ep 9 Mark Williams part 2 on PND in Fathers.
- LISTEN: Blue MumDays S1 Ep 18 Dr Andrew Mayers discusses PND in dads.
- Learn more about the 'First 1001 Days' campaign by clicking this link. The Parent Infant Foundation state that “the first 1001 days include pregnancy and the first two years of a child’s life. There is clear, compelling evidence that this is a significant and influential phase in development.”
- Click here for NHS guidance on P.T.S.D. (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder). There are some good support networks listed there too.
- PTSD UK are a UK charity dedicated to raising awareness of post-traumatic stress disorder, no matter the trauma that caused it.
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NEXT EPISODE:
Next time I speak to Laura Bisbey, who was diagnosed with perinatal distress and anxiety during her pregnancy. This sadly continued following the birth of her daughter. Laura tells me about her feelings of rage during the pregnancy, and - once her daughter had been born - her struggles with bonding and the onset of O.C.D. (obsessive compulsive disorder). It's a tremendously brave conversation and I am so grateful to Laura for sharing her story with us.
SUPPORT:
*FOR SUPPORT SPECIFIC TO THIS EPISODE, PLEASE SEE THE KEY TAKEAWAYS*
If you are struggling right now, please know that it’s okay to talk and reach out for help.
YOU ARE NOT ALONE AND WILL NOT FEEL THIS WAY FOR EVER.
We hope these support services are helpful (please note we do not check or monitor them individually).
Action on Postpartum Psychosis (APP)
Moderated Forum, click here to find out more.
Email: app@app-network.org / Tel: 020 3322 9900
The ADHD Foundation - the neurodiversity charity
Call us - 0151 541 9020 / Email - info@adhdfoundation.org.uk
AIMS for better birthing.
Email: helpline@aims.org.uk
This email will go to a group of AIMS volunteers and someone will respond as soon as possible. / Telephone: +44 (0) 300 365 0663 (leave message)
Andy's Man Club
A non-judgemental talking group for men
https://andysmanclub.co.uk/club-information/clubs/ info@andysmanclub.co.uk
Association of Postnatal Illness
Helpline: 10am – 2pm – 0207 386 0868 / Email: info@apni.org (Live chat online facility)
The UK's eating disorder charity.
0808 801 0677 / Email: help@beateatingdisorders.org.uk
Free NHS-accredited Baby Buddy app offering 24/7 App support for new parents
email: info@bipolaruk.org
Email: support@birthtraumaassociation.org.uk
Contact CALM on their national helpline: 0800 58 58 58 (5pm-midnight)
Email: lwise@talktalk.net (Liz Wise) / Mobile: 07773 283556
Contact: for families with disabled children
Support, advice and information for parents with disabled children.
- helpline: 0808 808 3555
- website: https://contact.org.uk/
Contact a Family
www.cafamily.org.uk
Contact a Family offer support for all childhood conditions, are also able to put families in touch. Featuring a directory of conditions and rare disorders online.
Helpline: 0808 808 3555 (lines open Monday – Friday 9.30am – 5pm)
CLAPA – Cleft Lip and Palate Association
www.clapa.com - Information and support on cleft lip and palate treatment.
Support dads to have successful relationships with their families, with mental health and accessing services through peer support and signposting.
kierananders@homestarthost.org.uk
0161 344 0669
Offers support and knowledge through a community of dads on practical parenting and fatherhood.
A digital safe space for fathers who wish to discuss their experiences of being black, a parent and masculinity in the modern world. hello@dopeblack.org
Family Lives
An organisation providing immediate help from volunteer parent support workers 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Helpline: 0808 800 2222 / www.familylives.org.uk
Family Rights Group
Support for parents and other family members whose children are involved with or need social care services. Helpline: 0808 801 0366 / www.frg.org.uk
https://www.reachingoutpmh.co.uk/ run by Mark Williams, offering support to dads.
A grassroots organisation committed to changing Black women and birthing people’s maternal health outcomes in the UK. Email: fivexmore@gmail.com
Gingerbread
Single parents, equal families. Help and advice on the issues that matter to lone parents. Helpline 0808 802 0925 / www.gingerbread.org.uk
The Hub of Hope - A directory of mental health support around the UK.
Supporting LGBT+ women & people globally on the path to motherhood or parenthood.
Email: contact@lgbtmummies.com
Make Birth Better (Birth Trauma Support)
Email: hello@makebirthbetter.org
Peer support available, email info@maternalocd.org to arrange
Supporting and empowering anyone who has experienced pregnancy loss to advocate for themselves. Email: info@bigoutreach.org / 0300 102 1596
Dedicated to sharing and supporting the black maternal experience through peer support, projects and advocacy. info@themotherhoodgroup.com
Offering Trauma, Mindfulness and Meditation sessions for Mothers and Mums to be with an NHS Mental Health Specialist, who’s also a Mother. motivationalmumsclub@gmail.com
Music Football Fatherhood - hello@musicfootballfatherhood.com
Open conversations around fatherhood, including blogs, peer support and podcasts.
Helpline: 0800 999 5786, open Mon-Fri 10am–4pm with support offered in English, Urdu, Punjabi, Mirpuri, Putwari, Hindko and Bengali. Email: info@mwnhelpline.co.uk
Online chat: www.mwnhelpline.co.uk / Text: 07415 206 936
National Autistic Society www.autism.org.uk
Support and advice for parents and carers of autistic children, including support to develop a greater understanding of their child’s needs and accessing services that meet the family's needs.
Netmums offer peer support via their Maternal Mental Health Drop-InClinic.
NHS
Contact your local GP surgery. Call the NHS on 111
or contact a local NHS urgent mental health helpline
If you are in crisis, visit Accident & Emergency at your nearest hospital.
Helpline open from 9am-8pm every day – 0843 2898 401
Email support available – info@pandasfoundation.org.uk
PRENATAL, PREGNANCY AND POSTPARTUM SUPPORT & CONNECTION in Canada
Petals offers free-of-charge specialist counselling to anyone who has experienced pregnancy or baby loss. Tel: 0300 688 0068
Web: petalscharity.org/counsellingcontact/
Email: counselling@petalscharity.org
I'd experienced a bit of trauma, as a child growing up. It was something that I'd, I'd literally kind of buried in my, um, subconscious. A lot of the times during certain situations I'd be very kind of unemotional and not really kind of empathise with people. And I, I very rarely cried as well. That all changed when I had my first child. It was like being hit by a Mac truck full of emotions. Like someone had jacked my central nervous system into a sort of emotional, high voltage cable. Just a pure flood of emotions kind of hit me when she was born. I think I cried for about three days straight, which was bonkers really. I'd buried it literally so far down in my subconscious that it was just, it was a, um, you know... and like anything else, the more you sort of cage and try and lock this stuff up, the more it sort of scratches and tries to, to get out. So when it, when it did get out, it was like "Whoa!" Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life. But for many mums and dads, it can be the hardest and at times the darkest of places. Welcome to Season 2 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone struggling with parenting. All the stories shared here are from the heart. These are real conversations and may be triggering, so please listen with discretion. We will also signpost you to help in the show notes. Thank you. This episode was recorded during the spring of 2022. Today's guest is Nick Raeburn, aka 'That Social Nerd'. Some might call Nick a video guru. Others know that his skills lie in bringing the story out in the most shy of souls. Blasting into the social atmosphere in late 2019 with his honest and raw content, Nick has transformed the way social is perceived by many corporate minds. He delivers video and high-end social strategy training to large companies looking to dominate their industry on social media. Nick came to my attention in a very brave and raw post on LinkedIn where he talked about the huge flood of emotion he experienced in becoming a dad. Prior to having children, Nick had never cried. He's here today to share his story with us and talk to us about this transformative and very personal experience. Before we start this episode, I'd just like to issue a trigger warning. We talk about child abuse from the very beginning, so please, if this is something that is going to be upsetting to you, please listen with care. Thank you. Hi Nick. Thank you so much for joining us today. It's a pleasure to be here Vikki. So can you first of all tell us a little bit about yourself, what you were like before you had children? Uh, yeah. Um, I guess I've always been a relatively kind of upbeat and, and, uh, happy individual. But, uh, yeah, before kids, um, I was quite kind of insular a lot of the time and I would often kind of, um, be very hard on myself, kind of beating myself up a lot, for certain things. And I don't know where that, that came from. I'd experienced a bit of trauma, as a child kind of growing up. I was sexually abused for, for a number of years by a close, uh, family relative. And, um, My goodness. It was something that I'd, I'd literally kind of buried in my, um, subconscious. A lot of the times during, certain situations I'd be very kind of unemotional and not really kind of empathise with people, um, too much. And, and I, I very rarely cried as well. Um, but I'm gonna start crying in a minute. That's okay. I'm a blubber! Yeah, and, uh, yeah, that, that all changed, um, when I had, uh, when I had my first child. The way I can kind of best describe it was kind of like being, it was like being hit by a Mac truck full of emotions. It was like someone had jacked my central nervous system into. You know, a sort of um, emotional, high voltage cable. It's the best way I can describe it. It's just like a pure flood of emotions kind of hit me when she was born. I think when she was born, I think I cried for about three days straight, which was bonkers really. I mean, they, they do say that there is actually a, a hormonal change in dads, which is something I hadn't realised, that actually your testosterone levels can drop on, your oestrogen increases. But it also sounds like it was the, kind of thing that, um, perhaps got through that barrier that you'd imposed on yourself as a, a sort of coping mechanism. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I've had, therapy since then. I've had, um, uh, what's called E.M.D.R. therapy (Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing), which is- I, I think this is kind of best described in layman's terms cause I'm not an expert- but, but I think, um, when you go through trauma, the memory kind of gets stuck and you kind of relive that trauma a lot of the time through any kind of high stress situations. And I think in people that have gone through trauma, you experience, uh, emotion much more strongly than most people. Your bandwidth or capacity to experience emotion is, is much narrower than most people. So obviously when she was born, it was like being plugged into a high voltage cable full of emotion. It was just nuts. I think it's kind of, why I've always kind of been fascinated with stories. As a kid, I used to sort of disappear and escape into stories and just to kind of escape from reality really a lot of the time. So, Did you get any support at the time when you were growing up? No, cause it was, it was, um, I mean there's obviously a lot of shame attached to that especially as a male as well. So I didn't speak to anyone about it. Um, and only just before I think my daughter was born, I sort of brought it up with my wife and, uh, spoke to her about it. And it's kind of been a very gradual process, with the sort of coming to terms of those things suddenly, you know, a light switch, uh, flicks on. I think it's, it's having a certain amount of insight to, to recognise it as well. One of the things that's definitely helped me as well, and this sounds really weird, but, um, being on social and being on LinkedIn, doing the job I do, it's almost quite cathartic. It's almost like a digital form of journaling. So you are, you're kind of, you're putting a lot of yourself out there and you, and you come to terms with a lot of things because you are expressing how you feel in that particular moment. And a lot of us don't do that on a day-to-day basis. We don't stop and check ourselves and go, " I feel like . This and why do I feel like this? What's affected me?" And, and, and, you know, just, just stopping, slowing down and breathing for five minutes and just checking why you feel the way you feel is, yeah. It's game changing. So I guess it's a bit like sort of previously people would blog about how they were feeling and certainly people like, um, Rosey of 'PND and Me' and other people like that. They started off blogging, just as a way of getting their thoughts down on paper. Elliot Rae of 'Music, Football, Fatherhood'. And so you are actually taking this one stage further. Have you actually seen a sea change in terms of how more 'human' and authentic people are being since the pandemic? Uh, definitely. Yeah. There's been a massive shift. In some ways I think it's one of the best things to ever affect us as a species. For people to slow down enough, to stop and ask themselves who they are. You know, some people spend their entire lives going through their lives not knowing who they are at their core. And that is, um, it's sad, really. I think COVID has allowed us to slow down, stop enough and for people to go, "Why am I doing this job? Is this really me?" And that's not to say, you know, you sort of find out who you are and, and that that's it. The best way I can describe it. I had, um, a mentor I was working with, when I was kind of going through this initially, and I said to him, "It feels like I've literally just climbed Everest. I've got to the peak and there's another bigger mountain over the horizon that I've got to now go and climb!" It's not a, um, you know, a kind of quick fix thing. I firmly believe that anything in life, that is good for you is hard work. It, it should be, it's designed to be hard work. So before you had your children, were you aware that you were putting up barriers or that you were sort of closed emotionally? Um, Not really. I guess I, I think I, I'd buried it, so, I mean, it, it happened when I was really young, um, around kind of four or four or five. And I think I may be, , from a neurological perspective, I think, is it between one and seven, I think is where most of your formation of how you interpret the world is, is, um, formed from that early age. So when that kind of stuff's imprinted on you from that age, it really does affect you from a, neurological standpoint. Um, yeah. No, I don't remember. It was definitely after she was born, that I was like, "Where has this come from suddenly? Yeah, yeah. Um and I'd buried it literally so far down in my subconscious that it was just, it was a, um, you know... and like anything else, the more you sort of cage and try and lock this stuff up, the more it sort of scratches and tries to, to get out. So when it, when it did get out, it was like, "Whoa!" Yeah. Yeah. Although they always sort of say about suppressed emotions, it's gonna come out sooner or later and, uh, you know, you won't have any control over it! Yeah. Yeah. So how did you approach the thought of fatherhood and the pregnancy? How was that for you? Yeah, it was fascinating. It was, um, probably one of the most amazing things. I remember actually the doctors- my first, because I've got a younger son and an older daughter- and I remember when my daughter was born, I distinctly remember the, um, the doctor shouting at me because like her birth was that they were so different in terms of, um, the process. So and I think maybe, I don't know from a physiological standpoint I guess, my wife's body was more prepared for it second time around. She'd been through it, her body had understood the trauma war. So maybe it is easier the second time around. But her first birth was very traumatic. She was breach, I think, I think she had the cord wrapped around the neck as well. And I think my wife's blood pressure was really, really high at the time as well but I remember I distinctly remember the doctor shouting at me. Because I was like, you know, it's the birth of my first child and I'm there like snapping away a hundred pictures and the doctor's like, "Can you just get out of the way!" Yeah- enough of the reportage! Yeah. Um, but just, um, my wife is absolutely, she's incredible. She's superwoman. She's, she's just, um, an amazing lady. Yeah, the, I mean the, the, the difference in their births between, and they're so massively different in their personality as well between her and, um, and him. Um, he, um, I think labour-wise she was, um, yeah, she wasn't in labour for that long, um, I think . When her contractions started, we went to the hospital and I think it was about four hours later, I think he was, he was born. Crikey. Wow. It was, yeah, really quick. Really quick birth so the difference was extraordinary. So with the trauma of the first birth, which unfortunately seems to be quite common. I have interviewed Dr. Rebecca Moore of Make Birth Better -and I would advise anybody affected by birth trauma to take a listen to that episode - but did you and your wife have any support afterwards in terms of that trauma? Um, so, yeah. I mean all my wife's family, on, uh, her side are pretty much all either psychiatrists or mental health experts. really? a, Wow. That's handy! Which is, is, yeah, it's quite handy. Um, but yeah. I mean, she coped with it, um, admirably well, but I, and I sometimes wonder, like I said, um, I don't know if it's, it's because her body was, was more ready for it second time around. But we, we distinctly made a decision like the second time around. She wanted to have a, completely natural birth. Like the first birth she had an epidural. Um, and, and the second one she didn't. And, and, uh, I think the birthing unit we're based now, um, there's, the main one is in, in Hastings, which is down the road. The one at Eastborne, they don't have any actual doctors there. It's just, it's just midwives. Um, but we, we made a, um, conscious decision to, to, um, do it that way. And it was just a, a much smoother birth. I'm not, I'm not advocating it, you know, either or. But, um, the, the more natural procedures seemed to, it just seemed to work better than, than any kind of medical intervention. It may be a complete coincidence, but... Yeah, whatever works for you and for any listeners out there, there is no right and wrong in giving birth at all. Um, and so. Can you describe to us what it was like when you met your daughter for the first time? Oh, he is going . Yeah. just yeah. In incredible, absolutely incredible. She is, yeah. They're, they're my world. Those two kids. Absolutely. Yeah. It's, well, you can see words, words can't express how, um, how I feel about those two, two kids. And they're, it's, um, it's, uh, I think I explained this to you before, um, it's, uh, it makes you more hyperaware as a parent. I think I'm, you know, in a way I'm almost, um, and this sounds really weird, but I'm almost kind of grateful for the, the, um, the trauma, because it's made me more, uh, hyper-aware as a parent, how they feel emotionally, what they're kind of going through. Like, um, my daughter, um, I did it with her last night and she's got like a, um, uh, a little gratitude book that she fills out. Amazing. Just to get her thoughts out there about how she feels and how she's felt kind of during the day and, and, um, just to make her more cognisant of her... we put so much focus on IQ and EQ is so much more important. Just to understand how she feels and how she feels in herself is, is to me... you know, I just, I want like most parents, I just want them both to be happy. Um, so and sort of resilient individuals. And that's thing, there is a mental health crisis amongst children around the world. In the UK it was there even before the pandemic. And obviously since the pandemic it's exacerbated further. And actually the best thing we can do as parents is to open that conversation about how you're feeling. And I haven't met one person who says that they haven't become a better parent as opposed to a worse parent through their mental difficulties. so yeah, if you're going through it right now and feeling that you are failing, you're not, and actually there will come a time when you come out the other end and you will, you will recover. Then you will find a time when you can look back and actually see that it's, it's made you better. It's made your children aware that, you know, life isn't all ups. It's a mixture of ups and downs and it's about navigating those challenges and, and talking about your feelings That's, that's a, that's a, a big one for me as well. I was very, um, I think most men -I may be generalising here- most men aren't attached enough to their, they don't have high levels of E.Q.. They don't talk about how they feel a lot of the time. And the difference is made in my relationship with my wife is huge, um, because she loves to talk. Um, and, and I didn't so much. I would always be kind of clammed up and now we talk, we sit on the sofa, we just talk for hours about just anything and everything. So it's, it's deepened our relationship as well, which is amazing. That's wonderful to hear because especially when you're new parents- if you're lucky enough to have a partner- it can put a huge strain on the relationship and especially when you are like ships that pass in the night and, you know, navigating those early months of like no sleep! And I remember going to bed about eight o'clock and, and you know, just. I distinctly remember us arguing about who would be going bed first! Yeah, I mean literally, believe it or not, Nick, I used to be quite rock and roll. I used to be in an all-girl rock band. I'd go out all the time till like four in the morning and stuff. And then suddenly I was going to bed at eight and my husband was coming home, because he's an editor, he'd come home from work about half seven. So we'd, oooh! We'd have about half an hour together and yeah, it was rubbish! And , you know, at points, I, I had like an oversupply breastfeeding issue, so I had to put like cabbage leaves in my in my bra to control the milk supply. And, sorry, T.M.I. (too much information), I'll need to put a trigger warning about that! But he would like have to, you know, he would help by like washing the leaves and like hitting them with, because they're like really tough. You have to hit them with a rolling pin! And so that was our interaction, you know, half an hour and him preparing my cabbage leaves! I, I, I dunno what, um, what. What was going through her mind as well in terms of the, the age gaps. My oldest daughter is, she's 10 and my son's two, he'll be three in, that's, that's quite a big gap then. Yeah. I, it's just like, it's like, oh, we've just, we've just sorted the, you know, we've got the, we've ticked the kid box and everything's fine and dandy and she's sleeping. And the difference as well, like I was saying, between the two, like when she was born, she lulled us into a false sense of security. She'd go down at seven, wake up at seven and be like, 12 hours asleep. We'd be like, we'd be like, this is like what? I know. It's like, "Well, this parenting lark, what, what are people going about? Like, this is easy. This is, this is a doddle!" And then, and then he came along , it's like, it's like up every, every hour on the dot. Um, uh, uh, and just, yeah, the, the difference, um, in them both, it's like, you know, we've kind of, we've got, we've got this sorted that we'll just add a bit more chaos into the mix, which is him! But, um, yeah, touch wood he's finally starting to, uh, to sleep now. And So you're coming out of it a bit. Yeah, the, the repercussions for, um, I think that's the biggest thing, um, that affects and, and people don't... they underestimate that. The biggest thing that affects, how your day goes is, is lack of sleep. Oh my God, it getting a, a decent night's sleep is, it works wonders for, for your, um, your cognitive bias, everything. You just feel happier. And that's the biggest thing I think that ends up kind of, um, ruining your day, um, is the lack of sleep. Yeah. And if any new parents are listening to this podcast and going through the unrelenting hell of no sleep, we're here just to say it does get better. It does, it does get better! You will, I, I know what it's like when you have a newborn, or even in the first year of their life, you feel like you're never going to have evenings back or your life back. You know, where you sit down with your partner- if you're lucky enough to have a partner -watch the TV, or, you know, have a drink, whatever. It isn't forever, even though it may feel like it at the time. The the, best, uh, I, I'm not one for, for giving out advice, but, but get it where you can if you, if you need to have a snooze, you know, if the, if the kids are sleeping and you are home looking after them, then have a sleep as well. Um, you know, just, just get some shut eye so that your, your, uh, your, your, uh, compos (mentis) for, for the rest of the day. So, yeah, that has a big effect. Yes. And, for anybody who is struggling sleeping, cuz I had terrible insomnia when, when Stanley was little. Um, sometimes the pressure to sleep is also all consuming. So even just closing your eyes and resting can have a positive impact. And if you have the time and the inclination, there is a 'Loving Kindness', 15 minute meditation. So if you're really struggling to relax or to sleep, um, please listen to that special bonus episode and I hope it's helpful in making you feel a bit sort of soothed and calmer. That's, I I, interesting you say calm. Cause that's, um, that's one of my, um, I'm a big advocate of the CALM app. I use that every morning. But it's, it's weird, isn't it? How, how that, that shift in, um, like you were saying about Covid, how people are more focused on their EQ and, and a company like Calm can become as large as it has because people, there's a need for people to, to, um, be self-reflective and practice gratitude and meditate and just look inwards a bit more and, and not be, I think that's what happens is we're, we're so distracted on a day-to-day basis by all this, all this, these lights and noise and shiny things, and it's like, if you take all that stuff away, it forces you to focus on you. And that's, that's the important part. You focus on, you, you start to view the world slightly differently than you did before. So, Yeah. Yeah. And if you've never meditated before, there is no right and wrong. It's literally listen to it for 15 minutes. You don't even have to be lying down. And if you fall asleep, fine, great. You know, that's brilliant. If you fall asleep. Or if your mind wanders, that's completely normal. They're a bit like sort of passing clouds that you just let them drift through. Um, so yeah, please give it a try and let us know how you get on. But, um, back to you and taking your daughter home, how were the first few days for you? Um, yeah, like I said, I think, um, I think I cried for about three days straight! I remember the first night distinctly, because they had to keep my wife in, uh, just, just for, um, kind of routine checkup so I couldn't be with them, that first evening, I think I probably got about a three hour sleep because I was just, I was just awake in bed, just crying, literally just crying. It hurt me to be away from them both, yeah. It was, uh, just, just incredible. But then I started to notice kind of changes in my uh, behavior. Like I, I'd be very, I'd be very conscious of the way other adults were with her and were around her. And that's when I started to kind of get a bit of insight into, like I said, it had kind of opened the floodgates a little bit on my trauma. It's almost like someone whacked me over the head with a brick. I think if it had been more subtle and sort of creeped up, and I probably wouldn't have paid much attention to it. But because it was such a, a big thing, um, at the time, it forced me to go, hold on a minute. There's something you, you know, um, there's a great book the Body Keeps the Score where your, your brain, uh, tries to trick you or, or tries to, to close that stuff off, but your body, um, remembers. And it's a, a book that's well worth reading. But um, yeah, it forced me to kind of go down that path and start to address the reason why I was was feeling like this, you know, kind of getting angry with people for no reason if they, if they kind of touched her or went near her. And, it kind of forced me to be - especially with her- really overprotective. And I was like, well, I was like, does, is this normal for a father to, to kind of feel like this? And it just, yeah, it kind forced me to to look into it and address why I was feeling the way I was feeling. Were you with- obviously, without going into detail, and we can skip this if, if you don't feel comfortable- but had you been aware of the trauma in the past or had you managed to repress it so much that it wasn't part of who you saw yourself as? Yeah, I think I, I think I'd managed to repress it so much, um, that it, yeah it was like, it was not even a, not even so much as a memory, it was just, it was just some kind of dark part of me, I guess. I was sort of seen it as, as kind of my, my kind of, yeah. Sort of dark part of me, I guess, and, and things like, um, you know, kind of getting... and that, that's what I find fascinating about this as a, as a man as well. Like, um, you know, things like we we're told as men not to get angry, and I always saw that, um, I always saw getting angry as, as kind of a, an instance of me kind of losing control and I, and sort of going into that, you know, obviously not understanding where the anger was, was coming from, but, but as men, I think we should celebrate and it's, it's something as men that, that we don't. We can tap into that anger and we can use it as a positive form of energy. There's so much negative connotation attached to anger, I think as men, which kind of makes me angry, ironically! Um, um, the, uh, I think I was, I always, I always saw myself as, um, and I did, I did a post about it a little while ago. It was a picture of my son on my shoulders, um, uh, kind of holding his, uh, arms out and I took a picture of him sat on my shoulders and I was like, "This is how I feel. Um, cause it's, the little boy's kind of trapped inside me and, um, I'm trying to articulate this in the best way I can. And I always saw that, uh, you know, the trauma, the things that happened to me as kind of a dark part of me, but. But they're not, they're, they're all me. It's, it's, you know, our, our darkness and our lie is what makes us whole and what makes us who we are. So you have to accept it and appreciate it as well. And do you think your outburst of emotion when your children were born, do you think in a way you were grieving the loss of your childhood? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, it's, uh, . I am still now, I'm, uh, I'm just like a giant man-child! I'm, you know, I'm, I'm obsessed with them, with, uh, playing with the kids and, and kind of reliving my childhood through them, which, um, I guess is, there's, there's pluses and minuses, uh, to that. But yeah I definitely, to a point kind of trying to sort of relive those, those experiences, so... But I also realise that I'm a grown up and I have responsibility and all the rest of it! that But you know what the play is something so intrinsic to human beings and, you know, even children don't get as many opportunities to play and to be free as they used to. That's how they get to that, how they get to, uh, to kind of prod and poke at the world and experience where boundaries are and experience how relationships are formed. And, and, uh, all the rest of it. I'm listening to Jordan Peterson's '12 Rules for Life' at the moment. And it's, uh, it's, uh, an amazing book. I listen to it on, on the audiobook, and there's a, I think it's Chapter Seven, about seven minutes in on the audiobook. He talks about an experience where he had this, um, I think it was a two-year-old boy that his mother would neglect him and he wouldn't eat. She wouldn't feed him. And, um, he was talking about his, uh, his wife took the boy and then she kind of sat with him there for 10 minutes trying to get him to feed himself. And, uh, she congratulated him. And, every mouthful was like, "Well, you know, well done. You're doing really, really well!" And then he explained that whole day afterwards, he kind of just followed her around like a puppy, just sort of sat with her... it's a really kind of beautiful moment in the book. I think it's always good to see, uh, other men crying, I think! Like I said, I had over 110 D.M.s (direct messages) the day I posted that video. I had a guy, uh, reach out to me, a complete stranger, who'd been through exactly the same thing I had and, and, uh, just phoned me out the blue and we ended up having a conversation and I was crying on the phone and he was crying on the phone. That's the power of social media to, allow you to tell your story at scale so that, so that you can help other people. It's amazing that we live in a world where, we can share stories openly and, and, allow other people to kind of, you know, realise that we're not as different as we think we are. And it clearly resonated hugely. And the thing is the more we talk about these things, the better it is for everybody -because I mean, that's why I did this podcast, to normalise the conversation, to get rid of the stigma of perinatal illness. There's so much stigma attached to ... and that's part of the power the, um, abusers tap into, they know that there's so much stigma around trauma and they know most of the time that the people that they abuse won't talk about it. And that's where they have the power. So yeah, to to own that and take that power back is, is hugely important. And it goes back to you, you know, as you say, it's about owning your story and making it yours and validating the, the little boy that went through that. Absolutely. It's very interesting you talking about the male perspective because one thing that I've really learned on this journey doing this podcast is the amount of fathers affected by the birth of their children. You know, for one reason or another. I think the current rate is one in 10 fathers are affected by postnatal depression, and that is just the ones that come forward and actually talk about it. Do you think as a culture we put or impose an idea of what being a man is, what masculinity is. Yeah, absolutely and there needs to be spaces for men to experience and be around other men. And that's part of a charity that, that I've, um, come into contact with. When my daughter was born, I kind of ... it's weird, isn't it? How your, your brain does these things? But at that point, I wanted to join the charity and there was a part of me that wanted to do it, and I wasn't ready. And it wasn't until my son was born, seven years later that I was like, "Okay, I'm, I'm ready now to, to do this, and I'm gonna do it for her, I'm gonna do it for him and I'm gonna do it for me and, and my wife as well." And, um, and it's, yeah, it's, it's a beautiful charity. It's called 'A Band of Brothers'. And it's, uh, it's older men mentoring younger men that have, you know, some of these, some of the stories, the, these young men, the things that have happened to them are just astronomical. Just the most awful things. But having an older man, a mentor in place that, that can say, "You know, I've been through what you've been through and I'm still here and I'm better for it." Just sort of a guide - I mean a lot of these young men have kind of been through the prison system and just there's a... I think especially with men, because they don't talk about this stuff, they tend to, there's a, uh, I can't, and I can't remember the exact line, but there's something like, um- it's on the 'A Band of Brothers' website- a young man will burn down an entire village just to feel warmth." You know, so many young men just kind of lash out with anger - there's that word again. And they need guidance that they need to be shown that there's right ways of doing things and there's, there's wrong ways of doing things. And it's just a great community and a great space for men to just sit and like, you know, I sit in circles with these men and they're complete strangers and I feel comfortable and safe with them. And I, I trust them with my life. They're, they're amazing, amazing men. I'll make sure I put a link to their website in the show notes because I think they sound like an incredible organisation. And also just for any dads who are affected by this episode, there are other resources. So there's 'Music, Football, Fatherhood', run by Elliott Rae- again, there's a link in the show notes. And also 'Fathers Reaching Out' which is organised by Mark Williams, who's been an absolute pioneer with regards to talking out about the, the male parental experience. I think this mentorship is so important because as a society, in the old days, you, you had sort of families, like wider families growing up together and staying in the same neighborhood. So perhaps you would have a bit more of a, a father figure or an older male relative who you you know, if, if you were lucky, opened up with you and encouraged conversation and gave you that guidance. but today's society is so fragmented, we don't have those ready support networks. Well this is something that, um, and I said this because we use, um, we use kind of a system I guess. Um, we take kind of Jungian archetypes. So with A Band of Brothers, there's what we would call the Lover, the Warrior and the Magician. And they're governed by the Sovereign. So your Lover is your kind of um, emotional energy or, or sexual relationships. The Warrior is your anger and it's your doing energy. And the Magician is your, your brain basically your, your thoughts. And the Sovereign governs those three aspects of your, your personality. You know, some men can be too much Warrior, some men can be too much Magician- they overthink things. It's it's having those all in balance. The book that we use, which kind of goes through these concepts, is a, book called, um, 'Parcival and the Stone From Heaven'. It's a really old text. I think it's over a thousand years old. Um, and, and I, sometimes I look at that text and, and it, and it's been translated from an earlier story. I kind of look at that book and I think to myself, did we, did we always know this stuff? Was it always, you know, kind of in inherent in, um, in, in cultures and traditions over time? And we've, we've lost it. We've lost the concept of it. Because we don't, you know, we don't listen to our elders, we don't having, having elders in place and, and that's, you know, one of the aspects of, of what we do when we circle up is there is an elder there, there's an older man, which kind of helps lead the circle and imparts knowledge and wisdom. But we don't have that in society. You know, how often do we kind to see our, our grandparents or older people and just hang out with them and have conversations with them? We don't. It's just, it's uh, it's, you're right, it's, it's society has become more and more, um, fragmented as a, as a result. So it's a very, I guess because it's a, a male thing, there's a very sort of strong sense of, um, kind of tribalism to it. And it's kind of what appealed to me is that we're, there's something so inherent in our makeup and our DNA as a species to accept stories and help, you know, have stories in place to help us kind of understand how to, to, um, traverse a path. And that's kind of what we do with that story. And that's what massively appealed to me because that's a large component of, uh, who, who I am. It's weird how you are, how all these things kind of, when you kind of stop and step back and look at them, how all those things kind of click into place. But when you are inside it, you just can't see the wood for the trees, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And so were they helpful to you in terms of your recovery? Hmm. Or had you recovered sufficiently? So, I did, um, I had what's called the E.M.D.R. (Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing) Therapy which kind of helps with the trauma in terms of kind of processing it. So I'd have that, um, Has that to do with eye movement? So, um, uh, yes, it simulates R.E.M. I guess, which is rapid eye movement, which is what happens when you sleep. So, um, that's what happens with the trauma, is the memory kind of gets, stuck and it doesn't get processed properly. So what they do is they get you to go back through the trauma again, and they get you to, I think originally it used to, be kind of following a finger, but now I think they get you to kind of tap on each shoulder just to process, you know, to get the left of my brain kind of working. And to actually process the trauma so it becomes just a memory rather than a stuck thing. Because when you experience anything kind of, um, really kind of stressful, it's like flicking a switch and it just brings that trauma back. Yeah, it kinda processes the, uh, the memory. Uh, yes. I'd had therapy and I'd had sessions before I joined them, but it's helped me massively in terms of, it's given, you know, it's, it's a large part of my 'why', my purpose really. I've teased the, the kind of, uh, uh, and, and that's what we do is, is, you know, is a classic heroes journey. It's like, you know, the hero kind of starts and they find out who they're, then they become the hero. And, and I, I feel, I, I feel like I've gone through that and now I can help other younger men to do the same thing. And I think it's a wonderful thing, you know, taking something that was so hugely negative, such a dark experience. but one that's caused profound change, you know, as part of your healing journey. And to be able to use that experience to guide other men, I think is an incredible thing. And I'm starting to go now! Do you ever find resistance in some of the men that you speak to, especially if they've been very angry? Oh, oh, yeah, absolutely. It's a large part of, of what we do, kind of helping you know, initiate, um, young men. We go through a lot through the, um, uh, police system, so, I men that have kind of come out of parole, they've come through the prison system and, and there's so much pushback from them initially, Because, you know, we, we've got a, a Quest weekend coming up, which is in April, which is where the younger men kind of start on this journey. And some of them, they turn up and, they just leave. Because it's like, the kind of unknown. It's like, "Why am I here? I don't wanna do this, this stuff!" But the change in them when they've been through this stuff is just, it's, almost like magic. , it's, uh, it's amazing to see. You know, a lot of what you're saying resonates so heavily with me about, what you were saying about the channeling of that anger. And actually, if you channel that anger directly, it can be incredible for like, drive and achieving things and ambition. Yeah, I remember one of my favorite authors, who passed away a few years ago, Terry Pratchett. He was a very angry writer, but when you look at his, I mean, you can kind of see it in a lot of his prose. But yeah, he used his anger in it in a really positive way. And it's natural sometimes for anyone to feel angry. But it's good to take that anger because there's, there's so much energy in it and getting you to channel it in the right way is, it's very powerful. Yeah. And the, the other thing that really resonated with me was you talking about how distress for a lot of men- and, you know, it seems very common to the experience of children -that, you know, disruptive behavior is a way that they try and cope with those difficult emotions, and that actually, if you have a child who is being very naughty or going off the rails, it's often because they're a damaged child or that, they're going through a problem that, that they can't comprehend or... they're ...have tools to express what's going on. They're trying to go "Pay attention to me. I need help here." And that's what really, again, angers me, and there's that word again about society, is that we see, people like this and we see young men like this as a hindrance or a thing that we need to kind of brush away and put to one side. And, and you look at anyone that's been, you know , has kind of substance abuse or there's usually at the core of that, a reason for why that person's like that. Um, and I think if we could as, uh, as a society more of us could look into that and kind of, and, and that's what 'A Band Of Brothers' are trying to do, treat the root cause of that problem. Not, not stick a bandaid on it and say, this is, you know, "On your way, off you go." Try and actually get to the core of, of the fundamental reason that person is like that and, and try and, um, re repair that, that damage. It's, uh, it's hugely important. Yeah, I, I remember Mark Williams saying , in one of the previous episodes about how he went through extreme alcohol abuse and how that, that is quite common in the fathers that he speaks to, that it's a way of trying to, again, repress those feelings. And also it's the way our culture is, you know, 'go down the pub and have a drink and forget it'. Um but the more I explore these things, the more I actually... um, I had a very, very difficult relationship with my father. He was, uh, an absolute bully. He was a tyrant. And very emotionally -like you weren't allowed, or, or you were belittled for showing any emotion. He was very cold in that way. And yeah, without a doubt, he screwed me up good and proper! Do you ever stop and think why he was like that? Well. It's, it's funny. So he passed away six years ago now. And both myself, my brother and my mom were all treated as complete failures and like an albatross around his neck. And I had such grief and anger when he passed away. And this guy terrified me for years, you know, right throughout adulthood. He terrified me. Uh, he was very emotionally abusive, but now I'm able to sort of look with empathy and I think he was very damaged. I think he was hugely damaged and that the way he was, was his way of coping. And that actually if he'd had help ...or, you know, I remember seeing a therapist when I was in my twenties and she said to me, "Look, I don't think you need the counselling, I think your dad does." So, I think, yeah, it's been a very difficult journey for me to look at him with compassion, but actually it's very healing to be able to do so, without a doubt. Yes. Yeah. So, um, uh, Jordan Peterson mentions that, a lot of uh, people that go through, trauma or, or abuse that, you know, it is kind of testament to the human condition and the goodness in people that we break those cycles. It's important. Um, yeah, I think you do come to a point where you kind of, do kind of reach a, a place of, um, empathy. but again, like I said, a lot of what we do with 'A Band of Brothers' is, is to it's. It's very, you know, we we're told oh, you know, " You shouldn't express anger." And it's wrong to express anger. We get the young men to express that anger, um, to, to get 'em, to focus that anger on the people that cause the things that happen to them. And that's an important part of the healing process for them. So it's okay to feel angry about this. It's normal and, uh, natural to, to feel angry about this stuff. So you can kind of, yeah. Just, just heal. And let it out. Your relationship must have changed greatly with your wife then, because from the man she married to the man who then became a father. It sounds like there's been a huge shift in you, and that must have been quite something for her to experience as well. I, have I I haven't, I haven't - it's interesting you've just mentioned that actually. Because I haven't thought about that in terms of, um, yeah, whether she saw that in me initially when we first, you know, we were sort of courting and stuff. I don't, I don't know. Uh, but yeah, you're right that the, the man that she kind of knew and fell in love with is very different to the man that she's married to now. But you know, from a personal standpoint, that man has grown and has a higher E.Q. needed and he's the man he needs to be at the moment in time for his kids. So... Yeah. And a bloody good dad because of that. And I think it's so important that- especially in a world with, you know, such incredible uncertainty, as we're talking, there's horrendous things going on in Ukraine. Um, and you know, with the pandemic and everything - it is so important that leaders become much more emotionally intelligent. You know, we're not really going to understand the repercussions of these uncertain times that we live in for a long time. And I grew up feeling that being sensitive was a weakness and a failing, but actually it's my superpower now, you know? And that took a long time for me to come round to thinking like that! The thing that you think is actually your biggest flaw, your biggest weakness a lot of the time is your biggest strength. It's understanding and seeing that for what it is. And that that's, it's having the insight to recognise that, um, and realise it and getting, getting yourself to see that is, extremely difficult sometimes! Yeah. And being an empathetic, compassionate person, you know, can be exhausting, don't get me wrong! Yeah. It's bad enough watching a Disney movie. You know, my God, the emotions I go through with that! But I do think, yeah, you know, it's not a flaw to be human. This is what makes us who we are. And I, I love your analogy to stories and why stories are so important to you and I think the fact that you sort of sit down and play with your children is wonderful because, again, another Mark Williams, uh, statistic that he brings in that actually in the first 1001 days of children's formative years- I think that's the first three years- there is a huge impact that is made on them from fathers playing with their children, reading to their children, sitting, singing with the children, dancing with them. And if you have a father that is cut off in that way, you know, who may be going through difficulties of their own that there is a direct impact on your child. Well, it's, it's almost a form of emotional abuse as well. Sometimes you can't see it if, if you are, if there's so much trauma there you are distancing yourself from your family because of it, the cycle continues because you are, you are, it's a form of emotional abuse that the child isn't getting the affection, the love, and the attention that they need from you to, to shape who they need to be in the world. So if you, yeah, if you can't take care of yourself, then you can't take care of them and you're only going to repeat that cycle again, kind of knowingly or unknowingly. Yeah. Yeah. And so the first part of getting help is, you know, and it's, it's really hard to come forward and say "I need help. I need support. I'm not okay." But the sooner you do that, the sooner you will get help, you will recover -because you WILL recover. You know, everybody does get through this and depression and anxiety are, are horrible illnesses, but you can recover from them. It's that first step on that path to becoming, um, yeah, becoming a hero, is to take that first initial step. Once you do that, the road's long, but, but the steps get easier, so Yeah, Yeah. And there's a lot of ups and downs, you know, there's no quick fix. It isn't like a linear curve that just goes upwards all the way. There's, you know, two steps forward, one step back, that old cliche. But the recovery doesn't just help you. It helps everybody. You have a, yeah, it helps the whole family. And that's not to make you feel guilty for the impact you may or may not be having on your child now, because if your child is fed and sheltered, that is incredible, you know? And if you don't feel a bond right now with your child, that is okay, that happens. But you can get that bond, you know, you just need some support. And it will happen over time. So don't feel guilty because you didn't ask for this, you know, you did not ask for this illness, and there is light at the end of the tunnel, and Nick and, I are here to sort of prove that. So Nick, what, what are your hopes for your son, especially going forward in terms of, you know, what it means to be a man in the modern world? Sorry, that's a really bit question isn't it?! It is - staggeringly huge! Um, I, I think just, uh, giving him, that emotional resilience, you know, showing, that men can cry, that they can feel emotions, that they can be, um, loving having all those, those parts of your psyche in balance. Um, I'm going through my, my mentoring cycle now with 'A Band of Brothers', so I'll be taking on a mentee after, um, April. So, you know, going through those things is going to help me become a better father and hopefully help me be able to effectively mentor my son as well. So, I think like most parents, I want him to be happy and healthy and resilient and just know his mind, which he already does at three years old! I think he's almost got, got me and me and my wife wrapped around his little fingers. Like, like the, the conversations we have with him! Because he's, he's just starting to, to kind of talk now, like his vocabulary's getting bigger, but the other day it's like, I'm gonna make him a juice. And it's like "No, no, I want this particular flavour juice in this particular cup!" It's like but yeah, he already knows his own mind. Definitely, at nearly three years old! So They, they do. Uh, yeah, like most parents just, just, they're resilient, um, and that they're happy and that they're healthy and they understand who they are. That's, that's something what most parents want, for their kids. Yeah, that's all we can hope for with our children. You know, that we can't take away life's challenges, but we can help them meet those challenges with resilience and with, an aptitude to know where to, to go for help and support and to be able to talk about how they're feeling. And for anybody that might be listening to this, who have very sadly experienced the trauma of abuse themselves, but may have never talked about that experience, is there any advice that you could offer them? I guess probably the biggest, one for me is, um make sure that when you do kind of finally talk to someone, speak to someone that you have a strong relationship with, that can be kind of confidential about this stuff like a partner for example. And that will kind of help and support you because it's not, you know, although you are doing most of the work, you don't do this journey alone. Other people are gonna gonna help you on the journey. So that first initial step make sure that you choose the right person to kind of express that you've kind been through this thing or that you are experiencing this difficulty in the first instance. And, and somebody who you know will not be judgemental... Yeah. ...about that information because I think when you're opening up about any mental illness- but I can imagine it's much more pronounced when you've been through something so traumatic as, as you have that you feel very vulnerable and you worry about how you are going to be perceived once that 'secret' is out. But actually I've found in speaking about my postnatal depression, that actually people are much more understanding and often say "Me too, but I was too afraid to talk about it." You afraid to say it, yeah, yeah. It does, It does require a certain amount of bravery, I think to, to kind of just, just admit it to yourself and to just say to the world, this is, you know... we're so conditioned in Western society to kind of accept social norms and it's like "Ooh we don't talk about this." And the shift that I've seen probably over the last five years and the conversation around the stigma of mental health. Like I, when I was younger, I came out of university and I worked as a a mental health nursing assistant for a few years. So that, you know, again, there may have been a part of my subconscious that thought, "Well, I need, I need to do this." Like, you can't always trace the dots looking forward, but if you stop and look back at it, so probably a part of me was like, "There's a reason I did that." Just like there's a reason why I've joined, 'A Band of Brothers' at this particular point in my life. So a part of my subconscious was obviously going, you know, you need to, you need to be around people that, that are like you and try and look after people that are like you because there's, there's, there's a lot of us out there! Yeah. Yeah. And you, you've been incredibly brave and, uh, so honest and it's just been a joy to, to speak to you today. You know, very heavy subject matter. But you're still, you know, one inspiring dad and, uh, I could imagine that, you know, you are the world to your family. So thank you for sharing your story with us and, and for spending the time with us this morning. I've got plenty of toilet roll now! I know! It's It's like I should have a competition for regular listeners as to, you know, guess, guess how many minutes? Yeah. many rolls did you get through! How many minutes before I started blubbing! Yeah. If you've enjoyed this episode of Blue MumDays, please like and subscribe. 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