Navigating Pregnancy With An Eating Disorder: HOPE VIRGO

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:00

I think the societal pressure contributes to the internal pressures.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:03

You start to question everything you are doing a lot more, from how

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:07

big you are to how much your bump's growing, all of that sort of stuff.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:11

That's where society's judgment comes in.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:14

And actually last week I was at an event and someone came into the

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:18

room and was like, "Oh, I didn't know you were having twins!"

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:20

And I was like, "Oh, uh, I'm not having twins.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:23

I think my bump's just growing this week."

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:25

And it was really awkward and I was on the train back home and I

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:29

was thinking "Is my bump too big?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:31

Like should I measure it?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:33

Like, should I check that it's not too big?"

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:35

And you do start to really question things like that.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:37

And I don't think I would've questioned that quite as much, had

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:40

it not been for comments like that.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:42

We have all of these unsolicited comments, unsolicited remarks about

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:45

our bodies around the food sides, around what we should be eating,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:48

about how much we should be eating.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:51

And everyone, for some reason, thinks that they're suddenly like an expert

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:54

in pregnancy when you're pregnant, even if they've never had a child,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:00:57

they're automatically the expert!

HOPE VIRGO: 00:01:00

And it's really difficult.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:01:01

And I think that then unintentionally creates that additional narrative

HOPE VIRGO: 00:01:05

in your head where you're kind of like, "Are my behaviours normal?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:01:08

Is what I'm doing okay?"

HOPE VIRGO: 00:01:10

And it just adds another complicated layer to it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:01:12

And I don't think that is just people with eating disorders.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:01:14

I think it's a pressure that everyone feels probably in pregnancy where

HOPE VIRGO: 00:01:18

you are, you're trying to look this kind of perfect way and you don't.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:01:24

And you don't look exactly like everyone else is looking.

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And, and it's hard then not to be in that comparison factor where

HOPE VIRGO: 00:01:31

you're comparing your bump size to everyone else's bump size.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:01:34

And, and in that, I guess I've had to be very careful, particularly on things like

HOPE VIRGO: 00:01:38

social media to not spend hours doing that comparison because actually it's just

HOPE VIRGO: 00:01:43

not helpful for me and it fuels a lot of the eating disorder thinking in my brain.

VIKKI: 00:01:52

Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life.

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But for many mums and dads, it can be the hardest and at

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times the darkest of places.

VIKKI: 00:02:04

Welcome to Season 2 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone

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struggling with parenting.

VIKKI: 00:02:11

All the stories shared here are from the heart.

VIKKI: 00:02:14

These are real conversations and may be triggering, so

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please listen with discretion.

VIKKI: 00:02:21

Today's episode covers disordered eating.

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We will also signpost you to help in the show notes.

VIKKI: 00:02:28

Thank you.

VIKKI: 00:02:30

This episode was recorded during the spring of 2022.

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Today's guest is Hope Virgo.

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Hope is an author and multi award-winning campaigner for

VIKKI: 00:02:41

people with eating disorders.

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Through her talks, Hope helps young people and employers deal with the

VIKKI: 00:02:47

rising tide of mental health issues.

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Hope is also a recognised media spokesperson and has published two

VIKKI: 00:02:54

books, including bestseller 'Stand Tall Little Girl', documenting

VIKKI: 00:02:58

her eating disorder journey.

VIKKI: 00:03:01

Hope's third book, 'You Are Free' is out in May 2022, which tackles

VIKKI: 00:03:05

issues around mental health and faith.

VIKKI: 00:03:08

In 2018, Hope launched the #DumpTheScales initiative, which called on the

VIKKI: 00:03:14

government to stop using B.M.I.

VIKKI: 00:03:15

(Body Mass Index) as the primary measure to determine whether someone with an

VIKKI: 00:03:18

eating disorder would qualify for N.H.S.

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support.

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Her petition generated over 116,000 signatures and was delivered

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to Number 10 Downing Street.

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The #DumpTheScales campaign- which put eating disorders on

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the government's agenda- has gone from strength to strength, making

VIKKI: 00:03:36

change happen on a national scale.

VIKKI: 00:03:40

Hope is currently navigating pregnancy, which is the perfect time for us to chat.

VIKKI: 00:03:44

Congratulations Hope.

VIKKI: 00:03:46

Thank you for joining us today.

VIKKI: 00:03:48

How's everything going with the pregnancy?

VIKKI: 00:03:50

How are you feeling at the moment?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:03:52

Yeah, it's quite, uh, honestly, it's quite

HOPE VIRGO: 00:03:54

overwhelming in places.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:03:55

I think it's been a real mixture of kind of, yeah, real excitement,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:03:59

but also feeling quite scared and I think apprehensive as well

HOPE VIRGO: 00:04:03

about what's going to happen.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:04:04

And I think particularly being in recovery from an eating disorder

HOPE VIRGO: 00:04:07

throws in a whole other kind of spanner into the works with it.

VIKKI: 00:04:11

Yeah, it certainly makes things more complicated.

VIKKI: 00:04:14

I think as a mum going through pregnancy anyway and experiencing the change in

VIKKI: 00:04:20

your body is quite overwhelming at times.

VIKKI: 00:04:24

And also can affect your confidence when you're coming from a place of wellness.

VIKKI: 00:04:28

But, having also gone through an eating disorder myself- I had anorexia

VIKKI: 00:04:34

for 10 years- which is something that I don't talk about actually.

VIKKI: 00:04:38

I feel much more comfortable talking about PND than my eating disorder.

VIKKI: 00:04:42

You know, for me personally, I found it very tricky to navigate.

VIKKI: 00:04:46

Do you mind telling us a little bit about your experience with that?

VIKKI: 00:04:51

I mean, I don't want to trigger anything, but just for people to gain a perspective

VIKKI: 00:04:55

on, on where you were coming from.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:04:57

Yeah, no, definitely.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:04:58

So I developed an eating disorder when I was about 12, 13 years old, and lived

HOPE VIRGO: 00:05:03

with it for about four, five years before anyone did anything about it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:05:07

I'm only 31, but back when I was growing up, no one talked about

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eating disorders and kind of mental health as much as we do nowadays.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:05:14

And no one really knew the signs to be looking out for with it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:05:18

Um, but at the time for me, the eating disorder was this

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real coping mechanism to life.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:05:23

It gave me this real value and sense of purpose, kind of distracted me

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a lot, numbed a lot of emotions, and basically just gave me what I

HOPE VIRGO: 00:05:30

needed out of life at that time.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:05:33

Um, eventually kind of fast forward through that kind of four or

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five years and I was diagnosed.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:05:38

Um, I ended up being admitted to a mental health hospital, where I spent a year in

HOPE VIRGO: 00:05:43

recovery, so learning a lot about food, exercise, um, but really the biggest

HOPE VIRGO: 00:05:48

thing for me was learning to understand about the eating disorder and what it

HOPE VIRGO: 00:05:52

was kind of doing for me and how to find other ways of coping with life.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:05:57

Um, and then, yeah, kind of ever since I came out of treatment, I've been

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:00

in a kinda stage of ongoing recovery.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:03

I believe that people can fully recover from an eating disorder,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:06

and really do believe that.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:07

I think for me, I've had moments in the last kind of 13 years where things

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:13

have felt really, really great where I thought I was fully recovered.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:16

Then I've had those moments where things have felt slightly harder.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:19

Um, and I've definitely had those moments when I've just kind of settled

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:22

and kind of thought, actually, this maybe is just what it's about.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:25

Maybe this is where I'm gonna get to.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:27

And so for me it's about kind of constantly pushing myself and challenging

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:31

myself to just, yeah, to kind of get rid of all of those food beliefs, to

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:35

stop using food as a coping mechanism.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:38

And I think that's where, in a way, the pregnancy gets slightly

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:42

harder, because yes we're told what we should and shouldn't be eating.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:46

We're told that we should be putting on a certain amount of weight, but

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not putting on too much weight.

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And everyone feels like they can comment on what you look like when

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:53

you're pregnant, which is just, I don't, I still don't really

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:55

understand why that's seen as okay.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:06:57

But I think on top of that, you are also sitting with so many

HOPE VIRGO: 00:07:01

more kind of heightened emotions.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:07:03

There's so much uncertainty about what's going to happen.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:07:07

And so for me, in those periods of uncertainty, in those periods of

HOPE VIRGO: 00:07:11

high emotion, my automatic reaction is, "Oh, I'll just go back to those

HOPE VIRGO: 00:07:14

behaviors that I did with the eating disorder and with exercise, and

HOPE VIRGO: 00:07:18

it will make things feel okay."

HOPE VIRGO: 00:07:20

And I know for me, I'm in a space now where I can be like,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:07:22

actually, do you know what?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:07:23

Although it is good in the short term to do that, it makes me

HOPE VIRGO: 00:07:26

feel better in the long term.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:07:27

It doesn't solve anything, but it does mean that I've had to learn

HOPE VIRGO: 00:07:31

over the last kind of decade or so to become so much more vocal in

HOPE VIRGO: 00:07:35

pretty much everything and everything I'm feeling on a day-to-day basis.

VIKKI: 00:07:40

Gosh, you've covered so many important points there.

VIKKI: 00:07:44

Um, and I'd love to talk more about how everybody Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:07:47

Feels they have a right to.

VIKKI: 00:07:48

Comment on your body when you're pregnant and touch your body when you're pregnant.

VIKKI: 00:07:54

And I'm sure I was probably as guilty of that before I had my son as anybody.

VIKKI: 00:08:00

But I think one of the, the very important things that you just raised there in

VIKKI: 00:08:05

talking about your own experience is how there, there's a misconception that

VIKKI: 00:08:10

eating disorders are about vanity and about sort of looking thin- there is that

VIKKI: 00:08:16

element about sort of, um, the aesthetic.

VIKKI: 00:08:21

But I know for me it was much more about control, being able

VIKKI: 00:08:26

to control something in my life.

VIKKI: 00:08:29

It was the one thing that I could feel I had a grip and a handle on.

VIKKI: 00:08:35

Was that the same for you or what did it stem from?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:08:39

Yeah, so for me it was, yeah, for me it was mainly around like,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:08:44

kind of, yeah, getting that certainty over situations, but numbing emotions

HOPE VIRGO: 00:08:47

and numbing things I didn't wanna feel.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:08:49

Um, mine stemmed, I think predominantly, um, from kind of

HOPE VIRGO: 00:08:53

family situations at home, kind of not really being able to navigate those.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:08:57

I was also sexually abused.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:08:59

Um, When I was 12 years old, and I think when you go through like some

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:04

form of abuse, you're often left with these feelings that there's something

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:07

kind of categorically wrong with you, and so you try and change that.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:10

But I don't think that you have to go through abuse to

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:12

feel that way about yourself.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:14

I think it could be that you don't see yourself presented on social media or

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:18

that someone makes a nasty comment to you, or maybe you don't- I don't know- live

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:21

up to the expectations of your family or you're in comparison with your siblings.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:25

Anything like that can make you feel like there's something that

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matter with you and because of all of those feelings around it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:31

I was like, I have to try and change this thing about me.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:34

And it's really interesting I think, because what, like what you've mentioned

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:37

about the kind of vanity - and I do think a lot of people in society

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:41

think that it is all about that- but it, it gets really complicated.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:45

Because I know for me, and wine wasn't about that and it wasn't about body image.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:48

But then for some reason the body image aspect becomes so intrinsic

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:53

to the whole of the illness..

VIKKI: 00:09:54

Hmm.

VIKKI: 00:09:55

Yeah.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:55

So it's then you are trying to understand, " I don't

HOPE VIRGO: 00:09:57

really care about what I looked like, but yet why am I fixating on this"?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:10:02

And then it's like unpacking all of that.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:10:03

And then because society tells you, "Oh, it's because you're vain."

HOPE VIRGO: 00:10:06

It's then like, you then started to question that and you're

HOPE VIRGO: 00:10:08

like, maybe that is what it is.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:10:09

Maybe it's nothing else.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:10:10

And so it kind of creates this weird kind of whirlpool of emotions around

HOPE VIRGO: 00:10:14

all of these different situations.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:10:15

And it, it's confusing.

VIKKI: 00:10:18

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:10:18

And there's a lot of shame and guilt.

VIKKI: 00:10:22

involved with those, those things.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:10:24

Hmm.

VIKKI: 00:10:25

So Hope I recently saw some incredibly shocking statistics, about,

VIKKI: 00:10:31

uh, pregnant women and eating disorders.

VIKKI: 00:10:34

And I think this is a great point to sort of open up more about your experience

VIKKI: 00:10:40

of navigating pregnancy after an eating disorder, but that 16% of pregnant women

VIKKI: 00:10:46

have experienced an eating disorder.

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So that's, you know, that's a surprising statistic.

VIKKI: 00:10:52

And 50% of those women will relapse within a year of delivery.

VIKKI: 00:10:58

So this is actually...

VIKKI: 00:10:59

It's serious stuff.

VIKKI: 00:11:01

And if I'm not mistaken, eating disorders can have the highest

VIKKI: 00:11:06

mortality rate of any mental illness.

VIKKI: 00:11:08

So this is something that there needs to be much more discussion about and

VIKKI: 00:11:12

much more openness, and that's why I admire you so greatly in, in changing

VIKKI: 00:11:17

the narrative and actually raising it in the way that you've been doing

VIKKI: 00:11:20

in such a vocal and effective way.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:11:24

Yeah, I think, um, I think, yeah.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:11:26

I thank you.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:11:27

Um, I love, yeah, I love what I do, . Um, it's a hard work, but I do love it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:11:31

But I think, yeah, I think it's, I think it's really scary actually.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:11:34

And I think what makes it even more scary with things like

HOPE VIRGO: 00:11:36

pregnancy and eating disorders is.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:11:39

Of those 16%, I'm sure there are like thousands and thousands

HOPE VIRGO: 00:11:44

of other people who don't look like they have an eating disorder.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:11:47

So then get completely dismissed in that moment.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:11:50

Um, and again, because of the shame and the guilt that often comes with it, again,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:11:54

people won't be honest, people won't talk to their kind of team about it, or they

HOPE VIRGO: 00:11:58

might have tried to talk to their team about it and then because they don't fit

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:01

into that mould or maybe they've never been taken seriously, then their kind

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:05

of consultant team within the antenatal unit might again not take them seriously

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:10

. And I think often then when you do have a baby, you then kind of.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:14

. Yeah, you are.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:14

I guess you are.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:14

You are so wrapped up in it that maybe you start putting that child first, which

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:18

obviously you should do to some extent.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:20

But at the same time, we have to make sure that we are managing our mental health

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:24

and actually making sure that for people who are pregnant, there is that full

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:27

package of support available, not just during pregnancy, but actually afterwards.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:31

And I was thinking about it like recently for myself, actually, I.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:35

I know that I can get through the pregnancy even if it's really hard

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:39

because I've got this kind of goal.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:40

There's an end date.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:42

Um, not a hundred percent sure when that'll be, but

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:44

there is an end date in sight.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:45

Um, and, but it's that bit afterwards where you're kind of like, actually,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:49

what, what's that gonna happen?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:50

What's gonna happen to me?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:51

Like, are things gonna be okay?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:53

Is the baby gonna be okay?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:54

Am I gonna be okay?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:55

And I think it's in that.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:12:57

Immediately afterwards where maybe you are kind of lacking the sleep,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:13:00

where everyone's really excited for you and then maybe you are not feeling

HOPE VIRGO: 00:13:03

as excited that you then start to really question what's going on?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:13:07

What am I gonna do?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:13:07

And I think, again, a lot of the messaging, particularly after birth

HOPE VIRGO: 00:13:11

around breastfeeding and everything like that, it then again adds

HOPE VIRGO: 00:13:14

that additional pressure onto you.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:13:16

And a lot of the messaging around breastfeeding is around calories

HOPE VIRGO: 00:13:19

and around weight, which not, I don't, I don't actually think that's

HOPE VIRGO: 00:13:22

a helpful narrative for anyone.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:13:24

But again, if you've had an eating disorder, it adds a different kind of,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:13:27

kind of spanner into that conversation and probably will add to a lot of the guilt

HOPE VIRGO: 00:13:31

than if you can't actually breastfeed.

VIKKI: 00:13:34

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:13:34

The breastfeeding topic is something that we talk about a lot on this podcast

VIKKI: 00:13:38

because it is absolutely wonderful and, you know, so good for the baby, well for

VIKKI: 00:13:45

both mum and baby if you can manage it.

VIKKI: 00:13:48

But there is so much pressure put on women and actually it's not as

VIKKI: 00:13:52

easy as you are led to believe.

VIKKI: 00:13:56

there are a lot of women who feel a massive sense of failure if they

VIKKI: 00:14:01

aren't able to breastfeed successfully.

VIKKI: 00:14:03

And I think, you know, having sort of compassionate and nurturing support

VIKKI: 00:14:08

for feeding whatever you do and whatever you choose to do or whatever

VIKKI: 00:14:12

you are able to do, it's all good.

VIKKI: 00:14:15

You are nurturing your baby.

VIKKI: 00:14:17

So with your team, your perinatal team, do you have support put in

VIKKI: 00:14:22

place for that aftercare period?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:14:26

Um, If I'm honest, I'm not a hundred percent sure yet!

HOPE VIRGO: 00:14:31

So it's been, it's been quite an interesting one, um, to navigate so far.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:14:35

So when I found out I was pregnant, obviously I rung my doctor, mainly

HOPE VIRGO: 00:14:40

because I didn't actually know what you are supposed to do in that situation!

HOPE VIRGO: 00:14:42

And then did my referrals and stuff like that to the local hospital.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:14:46

And it was in my first kind of consultation, I guess, with my

HOPE VIRGO: 00:14:49

midwife that they went through all my back history, things like that.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:14:53

Um, at which point, um, because of my history, I was flagged as being

HOPE VIRGO: 00:14:57

someone who would probably benefit from the mental health support.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:01

The first time I tried to access the support, I wasn't able to

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:04

get it, which was kind of right at the start of the pregnancy.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:08

I think obviously the system's massively overrun and I wasn't seen as

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:12

someone who needed it at that point.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:14

Um, but then have had, again, had another assessment recently and I'm actually

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:18

able to now qualify for that support, which I'm very, very grateful for.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:22

But a lot of it is kind of conversations up until the pregnancy.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:27

And then for me, I've had to really start to think, actually, what

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:30

am I going to need afterwards?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:31

Um, so I think in some sense I'm lucky because I, I've had a lot of

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:38

treatment in the past before, so I kind of know roughly what I need.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:42

I don't know what it's like to have a baby or anything like that, but I know

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:46

that actually for me, I need to have some social occasions in every single week.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:50

I need to have some sort of peer support and a space where I can just

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:53

go and be myself and if I'm finding things hard, be really honest about it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:15:58

So I've had to start looking actually at how I can set that up on my own.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:02

I'm based in Bristol and actually here, there is, near where I am, there are a

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:06

couple of charities that do offer that kind of support straight after pregnancy.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:09

So I've already kind of emailed those and tried to sort that out,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:13

but a lot of it is that unknown, um, and the unknown of actually

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:17

what, what will happen afterwards.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:19

Yeah.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:19

How much support will I get?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:21

And it's interesting because I was speaking recently to other people about

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:24

it and, um, I know in some situations you can get kind of, or definitely in the

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:29

past at least you had health visitors that would come and see you quite frequently.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:32

But for some reason where I am, that doesn't happen that much.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:35

So again, it's learning I guess to navigate that and feeling okay

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:39

calling on people that maybe are friends and family and who know what's

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:44

going on for me and know how I've been feeling and things like that.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:47

And actually, being confident to utilise that.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:50

At the start of the pregnancy, the best piece of advice actually someone

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:53

gave me was you have to be pushy and put yourself first in this.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:16:57

So I've spent a lot of the kind of last month or so trying to be really

HOPE VIRGO: 00:17:01

vocal about what I need to my team.

VIKKI: 00:17:04

I think that is so important.

VIKKI: 00:17:06

I think that will resonate with so many mums out there, especially

VIKKI: 00:17:10

those who have given birth or are pregnant through the pandemic.

VIKKI: 00:17:14

Because I think because of Covid, what was already a very stretched resource in

VIKKI: 00:17:18

terms of health visits and midwives, it's even more so and you're not having that

VIKKI: 00:17:24

sort of face-to-face care and support.

VIKKI: 00:17:29

So I think what you are saying there about being your own advocate and really

VIKKI: 00:17:33

flagging up and sort of really pushing for support is such an important one.

VIKKI: 00:17:38

And it's one that sometimes doesn't come naturally to us as women, to be so vocal.

VIKKI: 00:17:44

But I think that's so important.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:17:46

And I think it is really awkward and really uncomfortable and I

HOPE VIRGO: 00:17:49

think again, if you, if you've had an eating disorder or you have an eating

HOPE VIRGO: 00:17:52

disorder and it wasn't picked up during your pregnancy or you didn't feel

HOPE VIRGO: 00:17:56

like you could talk about it again and maybe because you don't look like you

HOPE VIRGO: 00:17:59

have an eating disorder always comes back to like the eating disorders,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:18:01

that kind of physical element of it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:18:03

I think in that sense, again, you have to make sure that you are really pushy

HOPE VIRGO: 00:18:06

and know that you really deserve it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:18:08

And it, it feels really uncomfortable and it's hard as like you said, to

HOPE VIRGO: 00:18:12

kind of advocate for yourself, but the more we get into doing it, actually

HOPE VIRGO: 00:18:16

the more chances we have at kind of setting ourself up for success.

VIKKI: 00:18:20

Definitely.

VIKKI: 00:18:21

And, um, I was just gonna alert people to- if anybody's experiencing this as they're

VIKKI: 00:18:26

listening, the Maternal Mental Health Alliance have put out a blog from Abigail

VIKKI: 00:18:32

Reynolds of 'We Are Wednesday's Child', which also talks about these issues.

VIKKI: 00:18:36

So I would definitely, um, suggest you read that and if you could give

VIKKI: 00:18:41

me the information the organisations that you've reached out to, I can

VIKKI: 00:18:46

put those in the show notes as well.

VIKKI: 00:18:48

You make a very, very good point there, and I know it's something that with

VIKKI: 00:18:51

the Change The Story campaign, you are shining a light on this, is that actually

VIKKI: 00:18:57

you don't have to look extremely thin to be suffering from an eating disorder.

VIKKI: 00:19:02

And I think again, that's a myth, isn't it?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:05

Yeah, and actually statistically we know that only 6% of

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:08

people with an eating disorder will ever fall into the underweight category.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:12

So that says kind of 94% cohort of people who will never fit

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:16

into that stereotypical mould.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:18

And it's really frustrating that for some reason in society we

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:21

still are stuck on this image.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:24

That eating disorders only affect thin people.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:26

But I think again, also the idea that eating disorders only affect white teenage

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:30

girls when actually we know that more and more adults are being affected and.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:35

Just because someone gets pregnant, it doesn't mean the eating disorder

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:38

is gonna miraculously go away.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:40

Actually, yes, in some situations it does really help people.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:43

And we hear stories all the time of people who make a full recovery straight after

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:48

pregnancy, which is, which is amazing, but actually for a lot of people, they

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:52

have to go through all of these mixed emotions around it and keep striving for

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:57

that kind of recovery process as well.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:19:59

And I think because we often think eating disorders are something

HOPE VIRGO: 00:20:01

that someone grows out of because there's so much stigma around it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:20:05

It means that people are so often just hidden in plain sight, just

HOPE VIRGO: 00:20:08

suffering on a day-to-day basis.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:20:10

And particularly I think when you're pregnant you're not gonna

HOPE VIRGO: 00:20:13

look like you have an eating disorder, because you're pregnant!

HOPE VIRGO: 00:20:16

So again, it makes it harder to even qualify for treatment

HOPE VIRGO: 00:20:19

and support in that sense.

VIKKI: 00:20:21

And have you found when you did reach out for help, did you find

VIKKI: 00:20:25

the support was empathetic and truly understanding of what you were going

VIKKI: 00:20:32

through in terms of your eating disorder?

VIKKI: 00:20:34

Or do you think there's still a lot of education within the health

VIKKI: 00:20:37

service that needs to be done?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:20:39

Yeah, it's, it's been really, really mixed, if I'm honest.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:20:41

So, uh, the first kind of midwife that I saw was really, really good

HOPE VIRGO: 00:20:47

and asked all the right questions.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:20:49

And I thought she was brilliant actually.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:20:51

The second one I saw, um, just because of how my appointments have fallen, I've not

HOPE VIRGO: 00:20:55

had the same person, um, wasn't as good.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:20:59

I think she didn't really fully understand it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:01

And told me that I should be exercising more to kind of curb

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:05

the anxiety around the pregnancy.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:08

And I was like, "That's probably not really what you say to someone who's

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:11

had an eating disorder to tell them to go and do some more exercise!"

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:15

So it has been very mixed and I think there's still a lot to do.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:17

And I think quite often a lot of the messaging that we're given and a lot

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:21

of the messaging that I've been told kind of unintentionally, kind of

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:24

pushes eating disorder culture and that narrative around it, normalising a lot

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:29

of our behaviors when actually I think there probably needs to be a lot more

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:32

education across all frontline staff.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:35

But again, cuz we're talking about pregnancy today, particularly

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:38

across kind of the midwives and in that follow up period as well to

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:42

make sure that people have a full understanding of eating disorders.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:45

I actually think that we should probably be screening every single parent that

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:49

comes in, whether they've had a diagnosis or not, they need to be screened on their

HOPE VIRGO: 00:21:54

behaviors towards food in their body.

VIKKI: 00:21:56

Because the other thing with eating disorders is, it's

VIKKI: 00:22:00

something you can't get away from.

VIKKI: 00:22:02

In order to live, you have to put food in your body.

VIKKI: 00:22:06

So it's something that you are having to battle with every single day.

VIKKI: 00:22:10

How have you found it navigating eating?

VIKKI: 00:22:14

Have, have you had to change your eating habits because you're pregnant?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:22:19

Yeah, so I only found out kind of week seven or eight, I was pregnant.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:22:23

So I had this kind of weird two months when I was pregnant, not feeling great,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:22:27

but not really sure what was going on.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:22:28

So I was kind of quite dismissive about it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:22:31

When I found out I think my body then kind of let itself into all

HOPE VIRGO: 00:22:36

of the cravings that I was having.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:22:38

And I felt I had really bad morning sickness.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:22:40

From probably week six, right up until week 12.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:22:44

Um, yeah, which was weird- not knowing I was pregnant and having

HOPE VIRGO: 00:22:47

really bad morning sickness.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:22:48

Because I was like, "What is the matter with me?"

HOPE VIRGO: 00:22:50

Yeah, I thought it was really, really odd, the whole thing.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:22:52

But, um, I just, I guess just the caveat that I grew up in a family where

HOPE VIRGO: 00:22:56

people, we just, if you were sick, you went to school, it was one of those

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:00

things, I kind of just got on with it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:02

At that point, I really . Let myself actually have what I was craving and

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:06

ended up having a lot of kind of, yeah, really carby stuff, kind of really

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:10

dry stuff, just because I was like, "Actually this is what my body needs."

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:14

But yeah, like since then it has been slightly challenging, so I actually

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:19

did look at the meal plan that I'd been given kind of a couple of years ago and

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:24

spoke to a nutritionist, a dietician, uh, about what I should be eating,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:28

like what would be helpful to eat.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:30

And for me, a big thing was actually educating myself on what the baby needed.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:35

So that I could make sure that actually I was giving him

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:37

what he needed in the moment.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:39

Um, because I thought that would really, really help me to really

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:42

kind of challenge things and to kind of get rid of a lot of unhealthy

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:46

behaviors that maybe I still had.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:49

And then I guess after that, yeah, like it's been hard.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:52

I think I went to um, the States a couple of weeks ago and obviously

HOPE VIRGO: 00:23:57

the food rules in the states for pregnancy are very, very different.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:24:01

And then trying to navigate that, but also navigating, kind of eating out

HOPE VIRGO: 00:24:05

and on a lot of the packets of food in the states, they have just random stuff

HOPE VIRGO: 00:24:09

written, which makes you then question it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:24:11

Um, so I think it's been quite- I've had to be very conscious that I'm not

HOPE VIRGO: 00:24:16

adding in extra food rules and kind of hiding them as food rules for the baby,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:24:21

but actually being like, "No, this is something that I can't eat because I'm

HOPE VIRGO: 00:24:24

pregnant", and kind of if that makes that sense, kind of making that distinction

HOPE VIRGO: 00:24:27

between kind of eating disorder rules and pregnancy rules, which I think is hard.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:24:31

I think also with the food aspect- and you'll probably know this better than I

HOPE VIRGO: 00:24:36

do- but you are told, I think, to eat a little bit more in your third trimester.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:24:40

So it's like, again, trying to navigate that and basically just trying to really

HOPE VIRGO: 00:24:45

listen to my body and listen to what I need in those moments, as opposed to kind

HOPE VIRGO: 00:24:49

of sticking to stuff quite religiously.

VIKKI: 00:24:51

I think you are absolutely right when you say about sort of all these

VIKKI: 00:24:56

additional rules that are kind of, you are bombarded with when you're pregnant.

VIKKI: 00:24:59

And I think there's so much pressure from society when you're pregnant, it feels

VIKKI: 00:25:04

like everybody has a right to judge you.

VIKKI: 00:25:07

Judge the size of your bump, how much weight you're putting on around your

VIKKI: 00:25:11

bump, whether you are or not- you know, your bump's either, "Oh, aren't you big?"

VIKKI: 00:25:14

or "Oh, you are tiny.

VIKKI: 00:25:17

You are really tiny!"

VIKKI: 00:25:18

And also this judgment on how much food you are eating, the

VIKKI: 00:25:22

types of food you're eating.

VIKKI: 00:25:24

There used to be messages about ' eating extra' and then in the

VIKKI: 00:25:29

last few years there's been "Oh no, you mustn't, that's a myth!

VIKKI: 00:25:32

You mustn't eat extra because you're gonna put on too much weight!"

VIKKI: 00:25:36

And again, that pressure about 'snapping back', I think was it Victoria Beckham

VIKKI: 00:25:41

was supposedly on a treadmill about two days after she gave birth to Harper!

HOPE VIRGO: 00:25:46

It can't be healthy.

VIKKI: 00:25:48

That cannot be healthy.

VIKKI: 00:25:49

I mean, for a start you've got, your core muscles, your stomach, muscles separate

VIKKI: 00:25:54

when you give birth, so you're not allowed to exercise for a while anyway.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:25:59

That's crazy.

VIKKI: 00:26:00

But, um, yeah, I mean, do you feel that societal pressure or do you feel most

VIKKI: 00:26:06

of your pressure is internal pressure?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:08

I think the societal pressure contributes to the internal pressures.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:12

Um, and I think part of that is you start to question everything you are doing a

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:17

lot more, and I know for me, yeah, from.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:20

How big you are to kind of, how much your bump's growing, all of that sort of stuff.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:24

That's where society's judgment comes in.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:27

Um, more so than for me.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:29

And actually last week I was at an event and someone came into

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:32

the room and was like, "Oh, I didn't know you were having twins!"

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:35

And I was like, "Oh, uh, I'm not having twins.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:38

I think my bump's just growing this week."

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:40

And it was really awkward and like I think I made a bit of a joke about

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:44

it afterwards, the people that I was with, and I don't think it really

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:48

hit home until kind of that evening.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:50

And then I was on the train back home and I was thinking kind

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:53

of like, "Is my bump too big?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:55

Like should I measure it?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:56

Like, should I check that it's not too big?"

HOPE VIRGO: 00:26:59

And you do start to really question things like that.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:01

And I don't think I would've questioned that quite as much, had

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:04

it not been for comments like that.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:06

And I think it's like I guess similar to what I said with the midwives.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:09

It's like we have all of these unsolicited comments, unsolicited remarks about

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:13

our bodies around the food sides, around what we should be eating,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:16

about how much we should be eating.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:18

And everyone, for some reason, thinks that they're suddenly like an expert

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:21

in pregnancy when you're pregnant, even if they've never had a child,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:25

they're automatically the expert!

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:27

And it's, really difficult.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:29

And I think that then unintentionally creates that additional narrative

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:32

in your head where you're kind of like, "Are my behaviours normal?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:36

Is what I'm doing okay?"

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:37

And it just adds another complicated layer to it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:40

And I don't think that is just people with eating disorders.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:42

I think it's a pressure that everyone feels probably in pregnancy where

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:46

you are, you're trying to look this kind of perfect way and you don't.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:51

And you don't look exactly like everyone else is looking.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:54

And, and it's hard then not to be in that comparison factor where

HOPE VIRGO: 00:27:58

you're comparing your bump size to everyone else's bump size.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:28:01

And, and in that, I guess I've had to be very careful, particularly on things like

HOPE VIRGO: 00:28:06

social media to not spend hours doing that comparison because actually it's just

HOPE VIRGO: 00:28:10

not helpful for me and it fuels a lot of the eating disorder thinking in my brain.

VIKKI: 00:28:16

Definitely, I think so many women out there listening to this will resonate

VIKKI: 00:28:22

with them, irrespective of whether they've had an eating disorder or not.

VIKKI: 00:28:26

I think if you have an eating disorder, it sort of puts a whole other level

VIKKI: 00:28:30

of overthinking and 'shame/ guilt' narrative on the top of that.

VIKKI: 00:28:36

Um, but I do think women as a whole absolutely are affected by comparison.

VIKKI: 00:28:42

And that doom scrolling when you're looking at social media feeds and

VIKKI: 00:28:46

everybody looks perfect and yeah, you are- I think it was episode two with an

VIKKI: 00:28:52

incredible lady called Emily Goldhill, and she was talking about her experience

VIKKI: 00:28:57

of having a baby during the pandemic.

VIKKI: 00:29:00

And she was saying, you know, everywhere she looked, it was images

VIKKI: 00:29:03

of this wonderful glowing pregnancy.

VIKKI: 00:29:06

And yet she was feeling anything but glowing.

VIKKI: 00:29:08

She felt just dreadful, awful.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:29:11

It is funny, isn't it?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:29:12

It's, I dunno where those images come from or what people, or what

HOPE VIRGO: 00:29:17

people do to get those images.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:29:18

I don't know.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:29:19

It fascinates me, because I'm like, "That's not what it's like!"

VIKKI: 00:29:22

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:29:23

Yeah.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:29:23

And we all know that's not what it's like, but yet we put pressure

HOPE VIRGO: 00:29:26

on ourselves to be like that and you are like, "This is just ridiculous!"

VIKKI: 00:29:30

Yeah, even seeing Rihanna turning up at events, you know, looking

VIKKI: 00:29:34

fabulous in her pregnancy, but wearing next to nothing and, and you just

VIKKI: 00:29:39

think like, "Oh, should I should , you know, should I be looking like that?!"

VIKKI: 00:29:44

And you forget that she's probably got a team of tens of people behind

VIKKI: 00:29:49

her making her look that good.

VIKKI: 00:29:51

And, you know, we 're just seeing the highlights reel,

VIKKI: 00:29:54

not their 'behind the scenes'.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:29:56

Mm-hmm.

VIKKI: 00:29:58

So you're in your second trimester now?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:30:00

Yeah, I'm week 24 and a half.

VIKKI: 00:30:03

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:30:03

So do you have an eating plan that you sort of adhere to?

VIKKI: 00:30:08

To give yourself comfort or are you trying to avoid putting

VIKKI: 00:30:14

those restrictions on yourself?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:30:16

Yeah, so I did, I do have one, um, in place that gives me, yeah, some

HOPE VIRGO: 00:30:19

sort of structure and routine around it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:30:22

But I try and not stick to it religiously.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:30:24

So not from a kind of like restriction perspective, but I try and, yeah, like

HOPE VIRGO: 00:30:29

if I need something, I'll have it or I vary it up throughout the day, so

HOPE VIRGO: 00:30:33

it's less regimented, which I think for me was a really important factor.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:30:36

I'd spent, when I went into hospital, I spent a year on a meal plan, and it

HOPE VIRGO: 00:30:41

took me such a long time to get away from that and become- I think like

HOPE VIRGO: 00:30:45

in treatment, you've just become so institutionlised that it becomes safe.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:30:49

And so, because I didn't want to be like that again, I've had to

HOPE VIRGO: 00:30:53

be really proactive and be like, "Actually, do you know what?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:30:54

I need something now" or "I'm not hungry yet" or "I am."

HOPE VIRGO: 00:30:58

It's hard though, and I think particularly when you're pregnant, it

HOPE VIRGO: 00:31:00

feels harder to do that because you're kind of second guessing a lot of stuff.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:31:04

But a big thing for me throughout, I guess a lot of this has been making

HOPE VIRGO: 00:31:09

sure that I'm adding in a huge amount of variety into my diet where I can

HOPE VIRGO: 00:31:13

and yeah, making sure that I'm still challenging it and pushing myself.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:31:17

And I think one of my big motivations, even actually during the pandemic was,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:31:21

I wanted to start to challenge my eating a lot more so that I could go out and

HOPE VIRGO: 00:31:25

have cake and pastries and lunches last minute with my children and now this

HOPE VIRGO: 00:31:30

is kind of here and it's happening, I'm like, actually, do you know what

HOPE VIRGO: 00:31:33

it's a driver to, to do that even more?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:31:35

Cause I don't want to be someone who can't do that with my kids.

VIKKI: 00:31:39

Yeah, and I think that's a whole other sort of thing is feeding your

VIKKI: 00:31:44

children when you've had problems or a problematic relationship with food.

VIKKI: 00:31:50

Um, and just going back, because obviously you had a very severe

VIKKI: 00:31:56

experience and it must have been absolutely terrifying being hospitalised.

VIKKI: 00:32:01

Did that experience affect your chances of getting pregnant, did it

VIKKI: 00:32:07

affect your fertility in any way?

VIKKI: 00:32:10

Because often periods stop- or I know mine did for quite a long

VIKKI: 00:32:14

time when I was below weight.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:32:16

Yeah, so I hadn't had one since I was 15, which is why I think,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:32:20

again, getting pregnant was so unexpected.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:32:23

Because yeah, we weren't, we weren't a hundred percent sure what was happening.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:32:27

I think that's the thing, isn't it?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:32:28

For me, the pregnancy and being able to have kids was a

HOPE VIRGO: 00:32:31

huge motivator in my recovery.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:32:34

So it was something that I knew I had to keep working towards.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:32:37

And I think actually kind of on that -linking kind of, I guess to periods

HOPE VIRGO: 00:32:40

and kind of your hormones as well- is we are seeing so many young women nowadays

HOPE VIRGO: 00:32:45

and older women too who are not having periods because they're exercising too

HOPE VIRGO: 00:32:50

much and we've kind of normalised that, or we think that it's okay when actually

HOPE VIRGO: 00:32:54

in those situations, again, even if they haven't been diagnosed with a full-blown

HOPE VIRGO: 00:32:57

eating disorder, there's still some sort of issue around your health there.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:02

And for me it was always a question of actually 'what does healthy mean to

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:06

me?' Is it a look or is it like actually my body functioning in the right way?

VIKKI: 00:33:11

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:33:12

And did you have an issue with excessive exercise yourself

VIKKI: 00:33:17

along with the disordered eating?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:18

Yeah, so it was a massive part of my illness actually.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:21

So over the kind of four years when I was, yeah, first unwell and then

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:26

when I relapsed back in 2016, um, again became a bit of an issue.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:30

And I think actually interestingly, that's probably been one of the hardest

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:34

things with pregnancy is, I really enjoy my running and it gives me head

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:38

space and it gets me out the house.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:41

But actually, like, I'm sure you know, when you're pregnant, you

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:43

can't do as much of this stuff and it starts to get uncomfortable

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:47

and you have to sit with again all of those feelings of uncertainty.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:50

And like, for me, a big thing's been kind of asking myself a lot of the time, like,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:56

am I exercising because I want to do it?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:57

Or am I doing it because I feel I have to?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:33:59

Am I doing it to numb emotions?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:34:01

And trying to understand that a lot more.

VIKKI: 00:34:04

that must be so exhausting, constantly

VIKKI: 00:34:07

questioning every thought process.

VIKKI: 00:34:09

You know, I know if anybody's been through C.B.T.

VIKKI: 00:34:12

(cognitive behavioural therapy), that's how you stop those negative thoughts

VIKKI: 00:34:17

and emotions kind of in their tracks.

VIKKI: 00:34:19

But it is exhausting and that must be so incredibly hard for you as well when

VIKKI: 00:34:25

you know, you use exercise as a release.

VIKKI: 00:34:28

To release tension and to keep emotions in balance and then not being

VIKKI: 00:34:33

able to do your supposedly healthier- you know, if done not to access,

VIKKI: 00:34:41

it's a very healthy pastime running.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:34:44

Yeah.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:34:44

And I think that's the thing, isn't it?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:34:45

When you are- we're told to exercise like certain amounts every week and yeah.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:34:51

When you then can't do the thing that helps you manage that or gives you

HOPE VIRGO: 00:34:54

that thinking space, yeah, it does get kind of slightly more complicated.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:34:58

I've definitely had to learn to deal with that, I think over the last

HOPE VIRGO: 00:35:01

couple of months and have probably spent a lot more time journaling

HOPE VIRGO: 00:35:05

to try and manage my emotions.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:35:06

I think it does have, it does have the same effects.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:35:09

It just has it slightly differently and I don't think you get

HOPE VIRGO: 00:35:12

the same rush of endorphins.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:35:13

But then in the long run, it's, it's better to have all of those

HOPE VIRGO: 00:35:16

other coping mechanisms, isn't it, even though it feels uncomfortable.

VIKKI: 00:35:19

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:35:20

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:35:21

And you know, it seems like you've, you've had to do a hell of a lot

VIKKI: 00:35:24

of work alongside coping with the pandemic, alongside being

VIKKI: 00:35:30

pregnant as a first time mum.

VIKKI: 00:35:32

You must be absolutely exhausted and, and doing all the campaigning

VIKKI: 00:35:36

work that you are doing because you've been so incredibly busy with

VIKKI: 00:35:39

the 'Change the Story' campaign.

VIKKI: 00:35:42

How's that been going?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:35:44

I think, I guess my, I guess just quickly kind

HOPE VIRGO: 00:35:46

of on your, on the comment about yeah, kind of dealing with stuff.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:35:50

I think whether you've had an eating disorder or not, nothing can set you

HOPE VIRGO: 00:35:54

up for dealing with pregnancy and for everyone it's so different, isn't it?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:35:59

"Oh I'll be fine when the baby's here.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:01

Like I'll have two weeks and when my husband's on paternity and then like I'll

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:06

get into a routine" and my older sister's always like, "lower your expectations!

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:10

It probably won't work that quickly.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:12

You'll probably feel really awful for a bit.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:13

Like the baby will cry a lot!"

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:15

So I think it's -, it's hard.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:17

I think nothing can set you up for that.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:18

And Even a year in hospital can't set me up for dealing with this.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:21

It's definitely interesting I think to some extent.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:23

And it makes, yeah, I guess it makes me realise actually like I need to have a

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:27

lot more coping mechanisms of my sleeve than the ones that maybe I had beforehand.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:32

Um, and I think one of my ways of dealing with stuff, which, arguably

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:36

to some respect isn't always the healthiest way to deal with things.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:39

And I do think it'll be interesting to see how this plays out, when I've had a baby.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:44

But from a work perspective, actually, a lot of my campaigning, I absolutely

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:47

love it and it really helps me to kind of stay well and helps to

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:51

motivate me and things like that.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:54

And kind of, yeah, I, really believe in it and think that people who've

HOPE VIRGO: 00:36:58

been through something firsthand, I guess like you do with your podcast,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:02

it's like actually we are in such a great position to then try and

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:05

influence change and to really help others who might also be struggling.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:10

But yeah, I guess, yeah, in answer to your actual question,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:13

the campaign is going well.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:15

We launched last Wednesday in Parliament, and there's a 12 month kind of plan

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:21

with working closely with Instagram to kind of tackle various topics every

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:26

single month over the next 12 months.

VIKKI: 00:37:28

Amazing.

VIKKI: 00:37:29

That's such a big win.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:31

Yeah.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:31

Hopefully.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:32

I'm, yeah, I'm like, we'll have to see how it goes.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:34

Um, but I think for me it was really important to make sure

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:37

it wasn't just a one-off thing, particularly because we launched

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:40

an Eating Disorder Awareness Week.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:42

And although awareness weeks are really important, I think again, it's like

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:45

quite often we have that conversation and then it kind of just stops.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:49

So I'm trying to yeah, kind of keep that going and- I guess from an educational

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:54

perspective- kind of educating society on things, but then from a broader

HOPE VIRGO: 00:37:58

perspective, making sure that, yeah, we're also educating like the

HOPE VIRGO: 00:38:02

government on it and actually making that kind of concrete policy change too.

VIKKI: 00:38:06

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:38:07

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:38:07

And it's, it is so needed.

VIKKI: 00:38:09

Um, I'm really sorry my internet dropped out just as you were talking about how

VIKKI: 00:38:13

you're gonna feel when the baby's here.

VIKKI: 00:38:15

Do you mind picking up on that again?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:38:17

Yeah, so, so I guess, yes, I guess for me, I'm, I'm, I'm convinced

HOPE VIRGO: 00:38:22

that when the baby's here, everything will be fine and it will sleep and

HOPE VIRGO: 00:38:26

it'll be this happy clappy time . Um, but I also think what a lot of people

HOPE VIRGO: 00:38:31

have said to me is actually about lowering my expectations during that.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:38:35

And I think not putting so much pressure on myself for things to

HOPE VIRGO: 00:38:39

be perfect because that's probably not gonna be the reality of it.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:38:43

Um, so I'm trying to pace myself a little bit more with it, um, and

HOPE VIRGO: 00:38:47

actually set myself up so that yeah, so that it isn't as pressurised.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:38:51

And so I'm not trying to be this kind of 'perfect parent', with everything

HOPE VIRGO: 00:38:55

going really well all the time.

VIKKI: 00:38:57

Yes, that does not exist.

VIKKI: 00:38:58

My God, it does not exist and that that is the thing, you know, you can be as

VIKKI: 00:39:03

prepared as you can be to meet your baby- you can have done all your N.C.T.

VIKKI: 00:39:08

classes, you can have read books, but when you get that little bundle

VIKKI: 00:39:11

of joy home, it is, it's just chaos!

VIKKI: 00:39:15

You know, everything sort of goes out of control.

VIKKI: 00:39:18

So, um, it's embracing that rather than trying to fight against it.

VIKKI: 00:39:24

And, And I'm sure you will be doing just the most incredible job, you

VIKKI: 00:39:28

know, and, and I can't wait to, to sort of chat to you on the flip

VIKKI: 00:39:32

side when you've met your baby!

HOPE VIRGO: 00:39:35

Yeah, it's exciting I think.

VIKKI: 00:39:36

So what, when's your due date?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:39:38

22nd of June.

VIKKI: 00:39:40

Oh, fabulous.

VIKKI: 00:39:41

Yeah- summer baby!

HOPE VIRGO: 00:39:42

Yeah, which I'm really pleased about actually.

VIKKI: 00:39:44

That's brilliant.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:39:45

I think it'll make things Well, I, yeah, I'm

HOPE VIRGO: 00:39:47

like, it'll make things easier.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:39:48

I dunno whether it will, but I feel like it'll be sunny outside, hopefully.

VIKKI: 00:39:53

My son's a summer baby as well, and I do think, you know, because

VIKKI: 00:39:57

you're able to go to the park a lot and you have the excuse to get out of the

VIKKI: 00:40:01

house, which is really important, and just even navigating changing nappies.

VIKKI: 00:40:07

You can do that in the park really easily.

VIKKI: 00:40:09

You know, it's not freezing- you don't have to take multiple layers off

VIKKI: 00:40:13

and everything's just, I don't know.

VIKKI: 00:40:16

I, I certainly find it easier when the sun's shining and there's flowers out

VIKKI: 00:40:20

so, um, oh, well, please keep in touch.

VIKKI: 00:40:23

Let us know how you're getting on and I really, really appreciate

VIKKI: 00:40:27

you taking time from your very busy schedule to chat to us today.

VIKKI: 00:40:31

Um, if anybody wants to know more about the 'Change the Story' campaign

VIKKI: 00:40:35

and the 'Dump the Scales' campaigns, how would they get in touch with you?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:40:39

Uh, so the best place probably my Instagram, which

HOPE VIRGO: 00:40:42

is just Hope Virgo underscore.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:40:43

So on that I have a lot of updates on the campaigning, um, but also kind

HOPE VIRGO: 00:40:47

of other eating disorder tips and advice and some stuff on pregnancy

HOPE VIRGO: 00:40:52

and eating disorders as well.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:40:53

And I always say I try and go back to everyone who's messaged me on there, um,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:40:57

even if it takes a little bit of time.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:40:58

So if you do message me, like, or if anything has come up and you wanna

HOPE VIRGO: 00:41:02

ask anything about our conversation today, please do feel free to kind of,

HOPE VIRGO: 00:41:06

yeah, get in touch that way as well.

VIKKI: 00:41:08

Thank you.

VIKKI: 00:41:08

And any final message to somebody who's perhaps having a hard time either

VIKKI: 00:41:14

navigating during their pregnancy or in that postnatal period, who are

VIKKI: 00:41:19

really struggling with disordered eating, what would you say to them?

HOPE VIRGO: 00:41:23

I guess firstly, remember to not lose hope that you can fully recover.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:41:27

I know it's, it's really, really difficult and it's really challenging

HOPE VIRGO: 00:41:31

and it feels relentless and horrible at times, but kind of hold onto that full

HOPE VIRGO: 00:41:35

recovery is possible because it 100% is.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:41:39

And I think also kind of finding a way to communicate with people

HOPE VIRGO: 00:41:42

around you what's going on, which can feel really, really difficult.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:41:46

But with eating disorders and disordered eating and exercise addiction, if

HOPE VIRGO: 00:41:50

we're not communicating, then all of those behaviors kind of start to

HOPE VIRGO: 00:41:54

suck us back in and pull us back in, giving us that false sense of security.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:41:58

So find someone that you can talk to and, for me it, it's normally easier to

HOPE VIRGO: 00:42:03

send an email or send a text first, kind of explaining how I'm feeling and then

HOPE VIRGO: 00:42:07

doing a bit of a follow up afterwards.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:42:09

But yeah, and I think remembering your worth in all of this, like making sure

HOPE VIRGO: 00:42:14

that you know that you deserve to have support, that you deserve to, yeah.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:42:19

Have people around you who care about you.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:42:21

So surrounding yourself with those people as well, and.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:42:24

Finally, sorry, this is not four things.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:42:26

Um, making sure I think that you are flooding yourself with the right

HOPE VIRGO: 00:42:29

content and the right stuff as well.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:42:31

I know a lot of us spend far too long on things like social media and even

HOPE VIRGO: 00:42:35

watching the T.V., but just making sure actually we're giving ourselves

HOPE VIRGO: 00:42:38

what we need in those moments.

VIKKI: 00:42:40

Oh, that's absolutely beautiful advice and yeah,

VIKKI: 00:42:43

you've brought me to tears!

VIKKI: 00:42:47

So, uh, yeah, I always blub, in every episode there's always a bit where

VIKKI: 00:42:51

I'm like, That's it, you've got me!"

VIKKI: 00:42:52

and you, you've got me now.

VIKKI: 00:42:53

So thank you so much Hope and good luck with everything and you take good care of

VIKKI: 00:42:59

yourself and let us know how you get on.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:43:01

No, I will do.

HOPE VIRGO: 00:43:01

Thank you so much.

VIKKI: 00:43:04

if you've enjoyed this episode of Blue MumDays, please like and subscribe.

VIKKI: 00:43:09

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VIKKI: 00:43:13

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