Episode 28
"No, I Am Not Fine!" P.T.S.D. and Birth Trauma: AMY LEIGH LOOPER
This week's guest is Amy Leigh Looper, a maternal leadership coach based in the United States. After a hugely successful career in enterprise software sales, Amy suffered postpartum depression with both of her children. We discuss the impact this had on her life and how she has turned her drive and knowledge to coaching mums on her maternal leadership program, which reduces fear and anxiety and encourages connection, confidence and growth.
This episode was recorded over Zoom from America, so apologies for the fluctuating sound quality. And for Brandy the Siamese cat's cameo at the beginning!
*TRIGGER WARNING: *Birth Trauma, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, brief mention of Suicide*
IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:
[00:00] Teaser quote.
[01:53] Introduction to Amy.
[03:41] Life before having her daughters.
[04:47] The first pregnancy - placenta praevia and bed rest.
[07:27] The mental load of tongue tie issues and sleep deprivation.
[10:04] Aiva's birth - C-section.
[10:58] *Trigger warning: brief mention of suicide of close family member*
[12:17] Lack of emotional support from her husband due to grief.
[15:05] Emberly's birth - V.B.A.C. and forceps.
[16:42] Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and E.M.D.R. Therapy.
[20:15] A forced smile 'get this baby off of me'.
[21:30] The impact of medical students watching the birth.
[25:10] P.T.S.D. and heightened anxiety. Leaving her high-flying career.
[30:14] How you fundamentally change when you become a mother.
[37:22] Finding her calling.
[39:14] How employers need to better support working mothers.
[40:26] Amy's work supporting other mums.
[43:48] Attitudes and support for postpartum depression in America.
[52:47] How to improve the system - better education, including employers.
[54:48] The impact of short maternity leave in America.
[56:41] Personal growth.
[58:21] Amy's message to her younger self and for others out there suffering.
KEY TAKEAWAYS:
- Click here for Amy's website for more information on her maternal leadership coaching and courses, including overcoming Working Mother Burnout.
- Information on Placenta Praevia
- Find out more about Tongue Tie
- Click for information on V.B.A.C. – Vaginal Birth After Caesarean.
- Link to information on P.T.S.D. – Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.
- Find out more about E.M.D.R. Therapy here – Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing.
- Listen to Christina Brown's episode of Blue MumDays
- Medicaid support for postpartum parents in America
- According to Amy, 75% of women suffering from postpartum depression and anxiety in America don’t seek support.
- Listen to the Blue MumDays episode on Birth Trauma here – with Dr Rebecca Moore of ‘Make Birth Better’.
- Find out more about Amy's book 'Leading Motherhood' through this link. It launches on 16th February 2023.
If you enjoyed this episode, please share, rate and subscribe. It really does make the difference in helping others find it – which means helping more parents in need.
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Email: bluemumdays@gmail.com
NEXT EPISODE:
Next time I speak to author, podcaster and professional grief counsellor Keji Moses. Keji talks movingly about the devastation of losing her baby girl Mayah, who was stillborn at 35 weeks. She has since made it her mission to shed light on the mental health impacts of pregnancy loss. Through her charity Mayah's Legacy, Keji supports families affected by this very personal tragedy and helps them to advocate for the care they need.
SUPPORT:
If you are struggling right now, please know that it’s okay to talk and reach out for help.
YOU ARE NOT ALONE AND WILL NOT FEEL THIS WAY FOR EVER.
We hope these support services are helpful (please note we do not check or monitor them individually).
Action on Postpartum Psychosis (APP)
Moderated Forum, click here to find out more.
Email: app@app-network.org
Tel: 020 3322 9900
ADDA - the Attention Deficit Disorder Association
National Resource Center (NRC)/ADHD Helpline Health Information Specialists
866-200-8098, Monday-Friday, 1 p.m. — 5 p.m. ET
ADHD UK - peer support, created by people with ADHD for those with ADHD
The ADHD Foundation - the neurodiversity charity
Call us - 0151 541 9020
Email - info@adhdfoundation.org.uk
AIMS for better birthing.
Email: helpline@aims.org.uk
This email will go to a group of AIMS volunteers and someone will respond as soon as possible.
Telephone: +44 (0) 300 365 0663
You will be able to leave a voicemail message which will be sent to all our Helpline Volunteers. Please include your name, phone number and brief details of your enquiry. A Volunteer will try to call you back as soon as possible.
Andy's Man Club
A non-judgemental talking group for men
https://andysmanclub.co.uk/club-information/clubs/
Email: info@andysmanclub.co.uk
Association of Postnatal Illness
Helpline: 10am – 2pm – 0207 386 0868
Email: info@apni.org
Live chat online facility
Free NHS-accredited Baby Buddy app offering
evidence-based information and self-care tools to help parents during pregnancy
and early stages of parenting.
App users also have access to a confidential, text-based Crisis Messenger which provides
24/7 support for new and expectant parents who are feeling extremely anxious or overwhelmed.
email: info@bipolaruk.org
Email: support@birthtraumaassociation.org.uk
Contact CALM
on their national helpline: 0800 58 58 58 (5pm-midnight)
Email: lwise@talktalk.net (Liz Wise)
Mobile: 07773 283556
Contact: for families with disabled children
Support, advice and information for parents with disabled children.
- helpline: 0808 808 3555
- website: https://contact.org.uk/
Contact a Family
www.cafamily.org.uk
Contact a Family offer support for all childhood conditions, are also able to put families in touch. Featuring a directory of conditions and rare disorders online.
Helpline: 0808 808 3555 (lines open Monday – Friday 9.30am – 5pm)
CLAPA – Cleft Lip and Palate Association
www.clapa.com
Information and support on cleft lip and palate treatment.
Support dads to have successful relationships with their families, with mental health and accessing services through peer support and signposting.
kierananders@homestarthost.org.uk
0161 344 0669
Offers support and knowledge through a community of dads on practical parenting and fatherhood.
A digital safe space for fathers who wish to discuss their experiences of being black, a parent and masculinity in the modern world.
hello@dopeblack.org
Family Lives
An organisation providing immediate help from volunteer parent support workers 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
- helpline: 0808 800 2222
- website: www.familylives.org.uk
Family Rights Group
Support for parents and other family members whose children are involved with or need social care services.
- helpline: 0808 801 0366
- website: www.frg.org.uk
https://www.reachingoutpmh.co.uk/
Run by Mark Williams, campaigner, speaker and writer, offering support to dads.
A grassroots organisation committed to changing Black women and birthing people’s maternal health outcomes in the UK.
Email: fivexmore@gmail.com
Gingerbread
Single parents, equal families. Help and advice on the issues that matter to lone parents.
- helpline: 0808 802 0925
- website: www.gingerbread.org.uk
A directory of mental health support around the UK.
Supporting LGBT+ women & people globally on the path to motherhood or parenthood.
Email: contact@lgbtmummies.com
Make Birth Better (Birth Trauma Support)
Email: hello@makebirthbetter.org
Peer support available, email info@maternalocd.org to arrange
Supporting and empowering anyone who has experienced pregnancy loss to advocate for themselves.
Email: info@bigoutreach.org
0300 102 1596
Dedicated to sharing and supporting the black maternal experience through peer support, projects and advocacy.
Offering Trauma, Mindfulness and Meditation sessions for Mothers and Mums to be with an NHS Mental Health Specialist, who’s also a Mother.
motivationalmumsclub@gmail.com
Open conversations around fatherhood, including blogs, peer support and podcasts.
hello@musicfootballfatherhood.com
Helpline: 0800 999 5786, open Mon-Fri 10am –
4pm with support offered in English, Urdu, Punjabi, Mirpuri, Putwari, Hindko,
and Bengali.
Email: info@mwnhelpline.co.uk
Online chat: www.mwnhelpline.co.uk
Text: 07415 206 936
National Autistic Society
www.autism.org.uk
Support and advice for parents and carers of autistic children, including support to develop a greater understanding of their child’s needs and accessing services that meet the family's needs.
Netmums offer peer support via their Maternal Mental Health Drop-In
NHS
Contact your local GP surgery.
Call the NHS on 111
or contact a local NHS urgent mental health helpline
If you are in crisis, visit Accident & Emergency at your nearest hospital.
Helpline open from 9am-8pm every day – 0843 2898 401
Email support available – info@pandasfoundation.org.uk
PRENATAL, PREGNANCY AND POSTPARTUM SUPPORT & CONNECTION in Canada
Petals offers free-of-charge specialist counselling to anyone who has experienced pregnancy
or baby loss.
Web: petalscharity.org/counsellingcontact/
Email: counselling@petalscharity.org
Tel: 0300 688 0068
Scott Mair is a consultant in paternal mental health and parent education, Peer support trainer. Dad, Husband, Army veteran.
Tel: 116 123
(this is a free telephone number and will not appear on the phone bill)
Web: www.samaritans.org
Email: jo@samaritans.org
My goal was "I'm going to VBAC", which is 'Vaginal Birth After Caesarean'. And you know, really tried hard for that and I did. But at the end they had to use forceps and they actually had a failed epidural. when they did the epidural, I felt the twinge and I'm like, "This isn't working!" And come to find out later in the medical records, it was completely a failed epidural. So when I had forceps, it was very painful. Like very physically traumatic! And then they brought in all these medical students because they thought that this was a really cool procedure. But on the mum, on the patient, it was extremely traumatic because I'm trying for hours to have this baby and to progress the birth and then have all of these people in there and then kind of having your spouse kind of like, "Oh, you're good, you're fine!" You know? And it was like, "No, I'm not fine!" You know? So what I would say is if you're a spouse listening and your wife is telling you, the mother is telling you like, "I am not fine. This was really traumatic," believe her because it is. And if that's their experience, that's their experience. Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life. But for many mums and dads it can be the hardest and at times the darkest of places. Welcome to Season 2 of Blue MumDays the podcast for anyone struggling with parenting. All the stories shared here are from the heart These are real conversations and may be triggering so please listen with discretion. Today's episode covers birth trauma, post-traumatic stress disorder and suicide. We will also signpost you to help in the show notes. Thank you. This episode was recorded during the spring of 2022. Today's guest is Amy Leigh Looper, who is a maternal leadership coach based in the United States. She joins me today from Arizona. Amy turned founder in 2020 after spending almost two decades in enterprise software sales where she was a senior sales leader having generated over $50 million in revenue as a cybersecurity and healthcare software professional. After landing the number one rep for over four organizations within that field, Amy landed her largest promotion to the title 'working mother'. Having experienced postpartum depression with both of her children, Amy is now tackling maternal mental health, where she's bringing all of her knowledge and drive to coaching individuals. Her maternal leadership programme, ' Postpartum Coaching With Heart', is designed to reduce fear and anxiety, create more connection, clarity, confidence and growth. Thank you so much for joining me today, Amy. How is the weather where you are? Oh, it's beautiful. Vikki. We're in Arizona, so it's starting to become warm and people are starting to get back into the pool - it's wonderful! It's a good time to come on vacation. Oh, fabulous. it's a beautiful early spring afternoon here. Not quite as, as warm as where it is where you are. But, beautiful blue sky, no cloud. So all good. And I have to apologise to both Amy and any listeners out there. I have just fed my Siamese cat Brandy, in the hopes that he would be quiet, but he's - I can hear him outside my door shouting! So, um, yeah, huge apologies if you hear him meowing in the background, but hopefully, fingers crossed, he'll be nice and quiet! Anyway, Amy, it sounds like you had a really successful career before becoming a mum. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what life was like for you before you had your children? Yeah. So life, you know, was, um, like kind of a, a typical American corporate working mum I was working up the ladder in corporate, um, sales, landed a promotion into sales leadership. And so I travelled a lot and, um, you know, was working with about 10 sales reps around the country at that time. So it was a, it was good. We were, we were newlyweds with two dogs and careers. Was pregnancy something you were planning for? Were you wanting to start a family or did things just happen organically? Yeah, they definitely happened organically for us. both times we were blessed and, I think we were given these blessings against by, all of our human design. But yeah, we were blessed with, our daughter Ava first, and then followed up a couple of years later by our daughter Emily. Fabulous. So how did you feel when you first found out you were pregnant with your first daughter? Yeah, I had just, actually gotten promoted to being a sales manager, which I was really working towards. I had, been a top performing rep in our company but I knew that I really had this calling to lead people and to really coach people. I just really loved to put those 'mum arms' around people and help them get to the next level of performance that they wanted to go. But I remember the day that I found out I was pregnant with Aiva and, such a happy moment. Such a, "Oh my gosh, what are we gonna do as first time parents?" moment, It was a big surprise for sure. How was that first pregnancy? Were you well during it or did you have any sort of problems like morning sickness? Yeah, we had a high risk pregnancy actually with that one. So, it went really well the first trimester. The second trimester I was, in California actually travelling for work. And I had a bleeding episode and went into the hospital there and soon to find out I had something they call, placenta previa. I didn't realize how serious it was until I was in the hospital for three days and you really have to limit mobility to make sure, the baby does not arrive so early. And it was only 19 weeks, so we knew we had to keep her in just as, as long as possible. And so my husband rushed up on an emergency flight. He had to come get me. The doctors were talking about, how we were even going to have to maybe even drive home versus fly home, which was like a 17 hour drive. yeah. So to not, have any sudden movement. I had to be in a wheelchair. They actually let us go and discharged us and let us fly home. But we had to tell the pilot, the scenario in case something happened and they would have to land the plane for us, if needed. And so we made it successfully back to Arizona. And then I went on bedrest for three months. It wasn't that I had to lay in bed all the time, but I had to stay home and I couldn't really leave. so that was difficult, to be, once travelling all the time and a go-getter and outside of my home to now being like inside of my home for a really long time. Wow. So Covid pandemic lockdown was nothing compared to to that. Wow. So that sounds like an extremely stressful, occurrence. So one minute you are working as normal at work, you're travelling and then you are rushed into a hospital. I mean, obviously for any woman, if you experience bleeding Yeah. during your pregnancy, it's really stressful and alarming because especially if it's your first, you don't understand what's happening. so mentally that must have been incredibly tough for you. It was tough. It was tough. I didn't realize how tough it was. and I think it all kind of came together after I had, Aiva, she was actually born with something called a tongue- tie. And I don't know what your experience is with tongue- ties at all, but they don't catch them regularly, especially here in the United States. And so oftentimes what happens is you figure out that your baby is not breastfeeding as smoothly as one could hope. You're not sleeping as the mum. And so the sleep deprivation and everything really caught up with me after all of that series of bedrest. And then I had a C-section with Aiva and then went into a lengthy period of trying to breastfeed. And it was a couple of months in where you just, you know, as a career- achievement- oriented kind of personality, you place a lot of stress internally on yourself to do the best that you can at things. And when something doesn't work out, you certainly, your mind can go to "I'm a failure", when in fact the outside conditions are just a challenge, right? And so we went through that and it ended up really, you know, forming into postpartum depression after all of those, different scenarios. because it was just a, a high stress period and never feeling like you could just get into a good rhythm until several months after the baby was born. I know so many women are listening to that and identifying with some of those things that you are talking about. I know for an awful lot of women who have been through postpartum or postnatal depression tend to be high achieving successful women in their own fields and who have a lot of control over their lives. And then obviously when baby comes along, you don't have as much control and you can take it very personally when you are struggling with those challenges and especially with something like breastfeeding, which can be extremely triggering. And I think your point about tongue tie is, you know, it's a huge factor in difficulties with breastfeeding. I mean, I'm no medical professional, but from my understanding it can make feeding very difficult, so baby's not as satisfied because they're not getting as much milk. It's very painful for you because you are constantly trying to change your latch. And because things aren't flowing as they should be, it can be a very unpleasant and painful experience as opposed to something that, when it's working well, breastfeeding can be the most lovely thing in the world. Yeah. wow. A lot, a lot going on. are you comfortable to talk about the birth experience with Aiva? Yeah, definitely. How was that experience for you? Yeah, the birthing experience with Aiva was a breeze compared to my second one. You know, having a c-section, I, I came from medical sales and so I was always kind of interested in the whole surgery aspect of it. So that, for me was easy. I thought it was pretty, pretty, actually neat to go through a C-section. I had pain medication, it wasn't painful, afterwards, those of you who've had a C-section, you probably can remember taking your first shower, the first walk down the hallway after a C-section. And that, that is, a little bit of a traumatic experience just because it's, you know, you've had major a bdominal surgery. But yeah, my, the second birth of my daughter was where, it was pretty traumatic birthing, birthing trauma in the birthing room. I'm so sorry to hear about that. So what sort of support did you have around you when you first had Aiva? Did you feel like you had, you know, . Good support from your partner? Yeah. Yeah, I did. I felt like I had good support with the first one. and I will just share that, I had, good support from them. I had, a good support from an au pair. Once I got back to work and we transitioned into that, It was really with the second daughter. Because what happened in between both of my pregnancies and I talk about this openly, with folks, is I had a very close family member actually commit suicide, on my husband's side of the family. And it really was difficult for everybody to just wrap their hands around that sudden situation. And then we had lost my mother-in-law shortly after that as well. And so the whole family just really was taken, into, their attention was to that spot. And so I really had to keep things together with my second new baby and the first one. And that was really difficult mentally. You know, we had had a second, surprise child. She was definitely a surprise! We found out on my husband's 40th birthday. I said," Happy birthday, we're having another one!" and um, and then we of worked through that. But that was really tough, I would say for any of you experiencing postpartum depression and you felt like your spouse maybe wasn't able to just be emotionally there for you. That can definitely contribute to that experience of postpartum depression and anxiety. My goodness. It sounds like you've had everything thrown at you. We really did. We did, but you know what? We've overcome it. So it's it's a testament to just, you know, you gotta keep going and keep overcoming all the challenges that come up. Yeah. and that you do get there. You know, a lot of listeners listening to the podcast now, potentially feel at rock bottom and feel that they can't see any way out of what they're going through. But we're here as testimony to the fact that you will get better and you will not always feel as low as you, you do. You chatting to me today and looking fabulous and, so bright and confident is just proof of that. Aw thank you. Yeah, and I think these things can also bring your marriages together too. It doesn't always have to end up in divorce, separation, all of those things that sometimes in the early days you really, you know, I think every couple goes through their growth period too. And so if you really lean in with love and start to lead with love versus all the other distractions that just naturally come up, then you can be brought back together. It might take some time. It took us a while, but you can definitely come back around. That's another great point because it's so easy, especially in the early days when you are both absolutely sleep deprived. You know, if my husband would say he was tired and I would go straight into the "Welcome to my world!" point of view, which is really uncompassionate to how he's feeling, because of course, as a partner, any birth partner also has all the effects and the major transition of having a little one in their life and the sleep deprivation. And so I think, yeah, if you are able to just speak to each other with love and compassion, and I know in the early days it feels very hard. You know, you can feel like passing ships in the night where you are going to bed at eight o'clock in the evening to get ahead, ready for waking up during the night. But you do get your relationship back and you do get your evenings back, it's just a temporary period of time. So my goodness, you had so much to deal with. Obviously with, you know, the tragic death in the family, did you feel you didn't have a place or space to talk about how you were feeling with everything? I definitely didn't feel heard just because, when your spouse is going through that kind of trauma as well, sometimes it feels like "We've already been through this, like you're, you know, we're having a, a baby." Like sometimes your emotions are dismissed. And what happened with the birth of my daughter, uh, Emberly, my second one, I had you know, back labor for the last couple of months. I'm sure some of you have been in that situation where your baby's maybe posterior and kind of looking towards your back a little bit- that can be very uncomfortable for the final weeks. But when we went into, um, actually giving birth, I was really determined to try to prevent postpartum depression again. At that point I didn't know what I know now where you can't necessarily, um, prevent postpartum depression. But my goal was "I'm going to VBAC", which is 'Vaginal Birth After Caesarean'. And you know, really tried hard for that and I did. But at the end they had to use forceps and they actually had a failed epidural. when they did the epidural, I felt the twinge and I'm like, "This isn't working!" And come to find out later in the medical records, it was completely a failed epidural. So when I had forceps, it was very painful. Like very physically traumatic! Yeah. And so, you know, they brought, and then they brought in all these medical students because they thought that this was a really cool procedure. But on the mum, on the patient, it was extremely traumatic because I'm trying for hours to have this baby and to progress the birth and then have all of these people in there and then kind of having your spouse kind of like, "Oh, you're good, you're fine!" You know? And it was like, "No, I'm not fine!" You know? So what I would say is if you're a spouse listening and your wife is telling you, the mother is telling you like, "I am not fine. This was really traumatic," believe her because it is. And if that's their experience, that's their experience. Oh my goodness. Um, so yeah, so that was a position I was in there! And so I ended up having P.T.S.D. for four and a half years, um, because I just, I felt dismissed. We had other stuff going on. We were just trying to keep careers going and everything else. So I didn't really take care of it right away. But eventually really started to work on like E.M.D.R. therapy, worked on my own leadership internally of emotion management, and really started to process through a lot of those big traumatic events. And I just needed to give myself space to do that, to recognise these things happen. Um, but you can process through it and get to the other side. So for anybody listening that doesn't know what P.T.S.D. and E.D.M.R. are, can you just explain a little bit about those please? Yeah, so P.T.S.D. is post-traumatic stress and it's your body's, uh, response to a traumatic event, right? Oftentimes we hear of soldiers and folks like that, getting it after being in war. It can also happen after traumatic, um, if you're in like a car accident or some kind of, uh, or giving birth, traumatic birth injury. I mean these things happen and it's just your body goes into fight or flight mode and you're always in this constant anxiety and sometimes you get constant reoccurring visions of the trauma. So for me, I would always, like anytime, you know, we were intimacy or anything like in the pelvic area would kind of like bring me back to being in the birthing room again. Or I'd have constant thoughts about it whenever I got stressed throughout the day and I would automatically go back into reliving that experience in my brain again. And so you're just constantly stuck in this cycle of just reliving those moments. And it's like your mind is just trying to process through it, but you get stuck on just looking at it a certain way and dwelling on like the pain of that situation versus just realizing like it happened in the past, it's done and you're safe now. And so you kind of have to retrain your brain into really realising like "You're safe and you're okay" at this moment in time. And is it E.D.M.R? Yeah, it's E.M.D.R. and it's a type of, um, therapy where, they focus on just retraining your brain on looking at different movements of a therapist's hand. And it can kind of move you out of, just move your brain out of, constantly reprocessing a certain memory and time that can be really, really painful and you start to just kind of like move away from it. So it's- it's a therapeutic method that's used. This is the one where you sort of follow the finger? And if I'm right in understanding this, it's allowing your brain to file away that traumatic memory in a way that can't keep repeating on a loop. You know, where you're getting these awful flashbacks. You just kind of it in a box and put it in its place on the shelf. Yeah. Yeah. So my goodness, wow- so many traumatic events from that, that birth. Having the epidural fail for a start, extremely painful, but also mentally. When you're going through that and you're expecting that moment of release and relief to then be told " We gotta carry on." you know, how did that make you feel? Yeah. I mean, you just felt "Oh my gosh." At that point it's like, " We need to get the baby out. We need to get the baby out. And as long as she's safe, that's great." But I have this picture of me holding Kimberly and, and I force a smile on, but behind that was literally like, it was just seconds after she was, you know, taken out and wrapped up and everything. looking at that picture now, I can just see the trauma was still, you know, just like you're in shock. I remember holding her going, I'm so glad that you're out and you're safe. But I also, at the same time, I just forced a smile for a picture quick and then I was like, "Get this baby off of me. I need her off of me now", because my body was processing all the pain. And I was like, I literally, um, you know, forceps kind of feel like you're like a Halloween pumpkin, for lack of a better term. Like it's really a crazy experience. And so, processing all of that, it was like, "I can't deal with that. I need to deal with me." Like, "I need to make sure that I'm okay" and take a pause. You know? So if any of you have been in those traumatic experiences where you're like, "I should love my baby and be all, all happy", it doesn't always happen that way. And it's okay. Because you are- you'll get past it and you'll eventually, get back into the groove where you wanna snuggle your baby, but for a few minutes there, it's natural for your body to just have the walls up and be like, "Everybody, get away!" It sounds like you're still in fight and flight mode. Oh, totally. Yeah. And suddenly, you know, you're at your most vulnerable, and then a wave of medical students come in were you consulted about that? I was asked, and this is where I kind of wish I, I knew more about doulas at the time because, I was in labour that wasn't really progressing and was like two hours in. And I'm asked like real quick by the nurse at the top of a shoulder, as I'm trying to like, you know, they're telling me to "Look in this mirror and push better!" You had all this stuff going on and then you've got this nurse asking me like, "Hey, would it be okay if the medical students came in, like to watch the forceps?" or whatever. And I'm like, "Whatever. I don't care!" Right? And so I feel like it was poor timing because just seeing as many people that they brought in, like I thought, "oh, one or two, okay fine." But then like I'm screaming like thinking, I'm literally screaming, I'm dying as this stuff is happening, right? And then, I just saw all these people in there just looking, and I remember seeing the horror on some of their faces because they're like looking at what they're, you know, and I could see in the mirror what was happening and I was. I was in horror. Everybody was like, "Ugh!", you know? And I'm like, "I'm dying!" So it's this big traumatic thing where I feel like medical providers really have an opportunity to think more about the patient. Well, yes, we wanna learn from these things. And I understand, I used to work with doctors all the time, like I understand the medical side of it, but the patient's mental, health needs to be prioritised. And we have gaps in our healthcare system for sure. My goodness. Yeah, absolutely. And what a thing for you to have experienced. You know, again, it's further invalidation of, you as an individual. And, just to make the point as well, that if you are traumatised by your birth, irrespective of whether there was a medical emergency, irrespective of whether your life was in danger or your baby's life was in danger. If it felt traumatic to you. That is a traumatic birth and you are entitled to get support to help process that trauma. And it is not your fault if you are struggling to get beyond that experience. But you know, again, you are living proof that you can move on from something as painful as that. Very well said. Vikki, like if you're traumatised, that it, it's true. Like you have been traumatised, but you can get through it. and your partner, because obviously he witnessed a very traumatic event of that. He was also still processing the grief and all the mixed emotions that come with losing his mother, is that right? Both parents. Both parents. So wow, how was his mental health at the time as well? Yeah, at that point, I think it was, those deaths happened after Emberly's birth and so, you know, we, or no, it was in between, I'm sorry, it was in between. So he was not really there emotionally. I would say very emotionally distant, right? Where it's just kind of discounting the trauma, "oh this? You know, you're okay. Like, it wasn't that big- it's over with" right? Um, so it's just one of those things where now he recognises you know, after a lot of work that we've done as a couple, recognising that those things, are real and that your spouse really needs support, um, emotionally, you know, during these times for sure. So when you first came home with your new daughter. Was Aiva a toddler at the time? Yeah, she was, two. They're two years apart. Yeah. So she was kind of probably just about able to get a sense of, "Oh my goodness, I'm a big girl now. You know, I'm a big sister." How was returning home for you after such a, a terrifying experience? Yeah. I really kind of put it away in a box for a while. Um, you know, I put it away in a box, just kind of kept going again. We went through the same thing with Emberly, the tongue tie experience, but at least this time I knew how to deal with that. Uh, and then, you know, then I realised just like how big of a deal it was. And then I, I just said, "You know what, I, I can't keep going in the corporate world and doing all this without some help." So that's when I started to do some E.M.D.R. therapy. Um, but for a lot of years I think I carried the burden of all of it, um, including what happened in our family, like on my shoulders. And I didn't, I didn't give myself credit, um, for the fact that maybe there was some neglect going on. And so that really kind of presented itself over the last couple of years. I'm like, "Okay, no, I'm gonna actually take my power back and realise we've been carrying a lot of stuff and I need a break", you know? I think when moms start to realize they're worth and that they are worthy for, you know, prioritising their health, mental and physical, I think that's a big turning point in anybody's recovery. Wow. Again, this is all resonating hugely. And yeah, certainly the episode that's gone live of Blue MumDays with, uh, the phenomenal Christina Brown of Motivational Mums Club, and she talks about same issues, about giving yourself grace and just giving yourself time to be still and to process and to just stop for a moment of, you know, being the one that's supporting everybody and doing everything for everybody else, but give yourself time and self care because, you know, you, you you're doing an awful lot. And I do feel that we as mums tend to put ourselves last, Yeah. In terms of the hierarchy of needs in the family. Yeah. So did you feel that you were coming down with postpartum illness immediately again? Or did it feel different this time because it was actually P.T.S.D? Yeah, it felt like P.T.S.D. for sure. And then, um, just a heightened like anxiety, which really manifested over the years into just kind of an anxiety, you know, symptoms of anxiety and excess worry that carried into my work. And then, at the beginning of, um, 2020, you know, I had an amazing career with a global cybersecurity firm. And I was, you know, kicking butt on the performance and the revenue performance, but I wasn't really managing the emotional side of it, and I wasn't really managing, you know, the stress between, um, you know, colleagues and just always having to be on -busy, busy, busy. And so, you know, in March of 2020, it was like we parted ways and I did not go back into the corporate grind. I said, "You know what?" And even my husband was like, "Let's support you in giving you space to create what you wanna create and really align with what you really want to do as a mum." Because as a mum you just change. You know, some women change more than others, but you, you know, your, your, um, your desires often change, your identity kind of just shifts a little bit, once you become a mum. And your requirement in life changes- obviously you have human beings to raise. So I really contribute the journey through entrepreneurialism in saving my own life. It really helps me get back into that creation zone and have the space to work on mental wellness and giving myself grace. Wow. So you, you've been in a seismic shift then, you know, with the pandemic- was this feeling happening before the pandemic? Or did that exacerbate your decision to say "Right enough- I'm, I'm coming off the hamster wheel." For me, the pandemic didn't really affect it, um, because it was right at the cusp of that, but it all kind of came together, right? The world events kind of met with like all the craziness that had been happening in my life over the last few years. So it was really you know, divine timing to be able to support in that way because then soon after, of course, school shut down and everything else. So that flexibility was such a blessing on our family. Gosh. Yeah. Every time I hear you speak. I just think, my gosh, there's so many questions I have, you know, and that I want to, to cover off. I think one of the really interesting points you made just then is about how you change your priorities, change your perceptions of what is important and what is not important in life changes when you become a mum. And do you think a lot of very career focused women actually find that a, a sort of rude awakening when they have their family in terms of that change, you know, that they aren't that person anymore. Yeah, I do. And a lot of my clients, uh, that I coach now come from that. They either come from high performance careers in selling, or maybe they're in a C- level executive kind of, um, position or heading towards that position because they're just, um, either really, you know, if you look at the quadrants of the personality, right? You have people that are controllers, promoters, some people that are supporters and very analytical. And a lot of the folks that are kind of that 'controller promoter' style just really thrive. Their energy thrives on achievements and, you know, um, doing really amazing things in life. And so they put a lot of extra pressure on themselves to get to that next level. And I think motherhood sometimes can be a really hard shift because as a mother, what do you do? You're a supporter. You have to really get in there and like, You know, be there for your kids. You kind of have to really flex to whatever mood and personality you're trying to work through with your children. And if you're on a conference call trying to do that with the kids and different things, right, then it can be really, really overwhelming. Um, because you kind of just have this sense of, well, I'm not doing what I should be doing in the corporate world, 110%. Right? Um, and so working through some of those feelings and really understanding what do I want as a mum, oftentimes that question I think comes up with a lot of people during that transition. Yeah. And I think as well there, there's so many women that go on maternity leave and think, "Okay, I'm gonna go back into work sort of within X amount of months". Um, But then the whole world's view changes when they have their their baby and, and some feel "Yep absolutely, you know, can't wait to get back into, work mode." Um, and others actually completely change what they want out of life when they, they have their child. But I think you are absolutely right and this, this whole sort of work . Culture that we have in the 21st century where you are always 'on'. You know, you've gotta work harder, faster, have a side hustle, do all these things, have a great profile, build your brand. It's all about achievement and, you know, being the best, the fastest, having the most amount of likes, having the best social media profile. And when you are a mum you don't have accreditation like that. You know, nobody says to you at the end of the day, "You did really well today by just surviving." You know, you've had four and a half hours of sleep. You have had multiple nappy clothes changes, you've been puked on five times today. Do you know what I mean? You know, getting out the house was a massive achievement, but nobody says anything like that. You know, there's no sense of appreciation or validation for how hard you're working as a mum. Yeah, yeah. It's just kind of expected, right? It's like we all want careers and society as the two, you know, working household, um, which I'm nothing against at all. We, we do that in my household. But yeah, the recognition isn't always there and sometimes, you know, it get, it gets better when your kids get older and they can actually talk and tell you how grateful they are. And they do, especially when they're little. But um, yeah, nobody tells you like, "Mum, that was a great diaper change today!" Yeah, you really smashed that out the park! Says that Well, I, you know, I even remember when I was in the throes of postnatal depression, starting like a little bullet point list of all the things I did in this one particular day because I felt so much of a failure as a mum. And I remember months later finding that list and there was about 30 things on it. You know, it's like, I went for an hour and a half long walk. I went to a baby group that I didn't want to go to because I didn't want to leave the house, you know, and all these things. I looked back and I just thought, my God, you know, I was overachieving and still feeling useless and you know, that is part of what the illness does to you, isn't it? It robs you of your sense of self-esteem. Yeah, it does. And so if you can kind of, You know, the thing that helped me bring me back to really myself and not getting caught up in the hustle culture that you just explained, was really making sure that I was getting like the 10 to 15 minutes with each one of my children, one-on-one, to really be present- like turning off the cell phone, not paying attention to all the things, the lists in your head, right? The model lists of the 'to-dos' and really like just playing with them. And then I started to really heal through that and I started to realise "Okay, if I'm consistently being present with my kids, I feel more valuable. I'm getting like that mum time that I need and they need from me." And then I really started down this journey of exploring 'what do you really want?' and being truthful to myself. Not just giving people what I thought they wanted to hear or what I thought was right to hear. But really like standing in my power of my own truth of like, "actually I don't wanna sell in this environment . I don't want to do this corporate job right now. Like maybe at some point in the future, but like for this season, I'm gonna be really super raw and honest and live it." Because it's one time- you get one shot at this! Oh, wow. You know, you are really speaking to me! Um, because again, I, you know, very different circumstances, but I definitely re-evaluated what I wanted out of life and what gave me joy. And I left quite a high stress, pressure job. And whilst there was elements of it I loved, you know, it was just really impacting on my work life balance. And I'm so much happier now. And you know, funnily enough, creating this podcast and sharing incredible stories like yours, this is what's making my heart sing. You know, this means more to me than winning any awards for creative work. This feels so much more important. And, um, yeah, I'm very privileged that you chose to share your story with us. So thank you for that. Yeah you're welcome, thanks for having me. I mean, gosh, so many different things I want to ask you about. Um, so with this big change, was your partner supportive of that? Because I mean, your identity was all wrapped up in your career for such a long time and, and all the achievements of your career. He was, in fact, I will say. And it was shocking that he kind of led, led that a little bit and really encouraged me, like "You're not happy." You know, he'd ask me, "Are you happy?" I'm like, "Oh yeah, no, I'm happy!" Right? I'm in sales, I'm really good at selling myself on like, things! And he's like, "No, you're not, you're not happy at all." And it was like, "Oh, okay. I'm not", but I didn't know. I Like, at that point- and this was two years ago- like, I literally would stand there and I'd be in... I went through a leadership training, shortly after becoming an entrepreneur. And one of the questions was like, "What do you want?" And I couldn't answer it. I was a blank wall going, "I have no clue what I want." And it was there, it was in there the whole time, but it really took a long time to like get all the layers off to really recognise it myself, right? Because I was so caught in my brain of like, "what do I need to do? We have bills," you know, like "I have a career, we got..." you know? All the things that you think about. But it took a long time to really figure that out, like months. And then finally realised "okay, it's actually in your journey, in your story that everything kind of comes together into what you're supposed to do." And so that's why I'm doing what I do now. So did you have a Eureka moment where you suddenly had an epiphany of like, "Wow! This is my calling, this is what I want to do"? Yeah. And it was really relieving of like I had to go through, if I didn't go through all of those things, I couldn't relate to as many people as I am able to impact now. And so now I can get such a bigger impact. Um, you know, I work with women all over the globe. I work with corporations as well, and so like the best of both worlds of really just helping people through some of those difficult times and employers learning what, how they can really support working mothers because working mothers are not going away. We're going to continue to have careers and do really amazing things in both professional and personal lives. And so how can we really support that? I think that's such an important thing because something I've banged on about in the past when I'm speaking at events is about, you know, the value of the working mom and how giving birth doesn't make you less good at your job. It actually makes you better at your job because you're so productive. You're so focused when you are in that' work' frame of mind. And, you know, think of all the skills like multitasking, negotiation skills. If you've negotiated with a toddler, you can deal with any difficult per personality in the workplace! And it's really important that our employers actually give us the credit we deserve and give us the support we need and the flexibility we might need in order to, to do our best for them and do the best for our families as well. Yeah, Most definitely. So tell us a bit about the work that you are doing. It means an awful lot to you and I love the fact, again- like so many of my other guests- you are taking what was a very negative experience and a very painful experience, but you've created something incredibly empowering and positive out of that. Yeah, yeah. It's been amazing to create it and share my stories, with folks because once you share your story, you know, I think, I think this was one of the blessings from the pandemic, is that people are starting to really put focus and value around mental wellness. And so it's removing the stigma from, um, you know, a lot of mothers have gone through these things, but they have, really felt like they had to suffer in silence and not use their voice and not share their stories. You know, a very close family member of mine even said, "You can't ever share your story, you're gonna hurt someone." And it's like, no, actually we should share our stories because it brings together community, and we're all in this together so we can support and understand that, postpartum depression and anxiety happens. It is not anything that you should feel guilty or shameful for at all, and you really cannot control and prevent it. Like if it's going to to come on for whatever reason, we can rarely be in our best health. But those are the kind of things that I do is I help really raise awareness around postpartum depression and anxiety. Um, and when women are going through it. Or they, maybe they've gone through it and it's could be a couple of years later that they don't really recognise that that's what it was or what they're continuing to experience. Um, you know, we really help break them through. So I have a programme that really helps, you know, support them and breaks them through within, um, a very quick amount of time, like within even just a few months, to be able to, you know, redesign their vision. And even sometimes they have to spend some time creating a vision because maybe they have neglected that space in their life. And I also work with a lot of entrepreneurs where, you know, we're doing things like helping build businesses and helping entrepreneurs, uh, working mums really break through to their next performance level. And so there's both that leadership and that revenue growth performance, um, that's part of it as well. Yeah. And I think it's a lot of, previously successful women, um, that returning to work after having a child can be- especially having suffered perinatal illness or anxiety- it can be really frightening and daunting about sort of stepping back into that world and how that's going to go. So are you sort of helping mums back into that workplace? Most definitely. Most definitely. Yeah. And figuring out what that looks like for them. Right. Because I think that's the turning point, and that's the greatest opportunity you have, is to really, you know, return to something that you want to do and that you feel empowered to do. Because motherhood will become heavy at some points. It is an extra responsibility, and so your energy as an individual will be so much higher and so much more effective in any workplace, whether it's for someone else or for your own business when you're totally aligned to it. Yeah. Yeah. And you've got your voice and you're not afraid to step into your power. Yeah. And obviously I'm absolutely fascinated from the point of view that your experience is very much about the, perinatal mental health system within America. Mm-hmm. I mean, I do think, you know, over here the N.H.S., there is a five year program where there is a lot of investment in terms of like mother and baby units, which are much, much needed. But there are still an awful lot of women and, you know, men because one in 10 dads develops postpartum depression. Um, that there's still a lot of people that are falling through the cracks. There is still a lot of misunderstanding, there are still a lot of myths and, and stigma surrounding PND and related illnesses, um, that, you know, you somehow "brought it upon yourself" or it's something you can control. And it's not, it's totally indiscriminate. What is the belief system attached to postpartum over in America? Yeah, yeah. I, I still think there's a big gap there. Um, there's a lot of stigma still around, um, you know, Postpartum depression being, being, uh, of importance. And the reason why I say that, even though it is coming up more in our current, um, government administration, there's, there's some different bills out there that they're trying to pass to support, uh, maternal mental health in general. Um, and, and there's definitely some programs, um, you know, with, with folks on Medicaid and, and some of these different... Um, in government funded programs to support more like postpartum touches, whether that be communication from your doctor via phone call or text messaging in different, ways, right? But there's still a big gap. And there's a big gap with women, especially professional women. Who are not necessarily on those types of healthcare programs, and they're using, you know, private insurance and, there's just not support unless you go and seek it yourself. And so that's where the education piece comes in. And, um, you know, when you're going through prenatal classes, postpartum depression is sometimes touched on, not always. And if it is touched on, it's a very light level. And so if the education isn't necessarily consistent, and then within the healthcare - you know, OB- GYNs and obstetrics, there's more and more education happening for those doctors. And there's a big focus on trying to educate them because even in med school, they spend less than 30 minutes actually learning about perinatal mood disorders. And yeah, that was eye-opening. I mentored with, Dr. Shoshana Bennett, um, who is one of the top perinatal, psychologists in, in the world. And she just so happens to live near me and we were able to form a, you know, a mentor mentorship partnership. And when she mentioned that statistic only 30 minutes or less in their whole education around perinatal mood disorders, I was just shocked. But it explained my own experience going through a traumatic birth. And I thought, well, this is why. They're just, they just don't realise you know. It's not intentional, but it's an outcome that's unfortunately happening because they're just so focused on the outcome of birth rates and, and things like that. So, And o obviously, you know, for any healthcare professional, my, my goodness, they're so stretched and they have so much... so stretched. ...so much pressure and responsibility. So we're absolutely not, um, accusing them of things. But I think there is hopefully room to better educate how, you know, damaging words can be and how damaging, um, not being validated in the birth experience can be. And it isn't just affecting the, the birthing mother, it's affecting the whole family potentially, including the children. And something in the U.K. I know we're looking now more at the effect on the family rather than a single individual. And that can have ramifications, you know, going on for years. So it is really important to make the birth as caring and compassionate as possible. Yeah. And then, and then just forming the communities right, for the support as we don't expect, um, you know, surgeons and OB-GYNS to really be able to just carry on that kind of support with their patients long term. But being able to bring in resources regularly. And there's a big shortage of those resources in the United States right now for, um, mental wellness overall, let alone a very specific niche of, you know, perinatal mental wellness. So as that continues to grow, I think we'll see better outcomes, but there's definitely a need for more folks to focus on it. And you were saying that there's, a gap in terms of private insurance. So because obviously, you know, we have the N.H.S. over here, but in America you have to pay for all your medical care, is that right? Or you take out insurance for it? Right. You have, and then you have, um, it covers a portion of it, right? Yeah. And so a lot of people are having to pay private insurance. So if they seek support, again, there's a financial burden? Yeah, definitely. So, you know, you'll have, um, some providers that accept insurance and some providers are electing not to accept insurance anymore, and it's private pay. So either way there will be a cost, whether either through a deductible, um, you know, payment, co-pays and things like that through insurance or it's just private pay. And oftentimes, you know, it's, there's not a lot of difference depending on your plan. So, yeah, there's definitely a financial burden. It's not just, it's not just covered, yeah. And what about the mums that are from less privileged backgrounds, who, you know, that sort of financial cost- it's just, they cannot prioritise spending that much on themselves. Yeah. I mean there, so over 75% of women never actually, um, seek help for postpartum depression, uh, which is in the United States. Yeah. So it's a big percentage. And oftentimes, just like my story, right? When you first have your baby, you're just trying to take care of your baby. You don't have time or you don't feel like you have time, to be able to prioritise some of these things. Um, unless it's a really big mental health event that maybe requires, you know, hospitalisation or immediate care. Um, but, um, you know, in these other instances, oftentimes it lingers for many years. But we have to keep in mind that if you've, if you've had a baby and now you're struggling with depression, anxiety at any point in your motherhood, not just a year after having a baby, but at any point it is postpartum. So, you know, postpartum depression anxiety can really linger and manifest into different things. You might see that your marriage, you know, for us it was like big red flags when career and marriage started to really kind of break down. It was like, "Okay, we need to go figure some things out," uh, on both parties. But for me it was really kind of figuring out and, and working through some of the traumas that had happened early on, um, giving birth. Thank you so much for, for being, you know, talking about it with such honesty. One thing that I know when we chatted previously, when we first talked before arranging the interview, you also talked about you had been visiting women in shelters who were homeless and who were having babies. And it was quite an eye-opening experience for you, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It was really interesting. Um, there's a, you know, a few women's shelters here in the Phoenix, Arizona area, and I, um, was able to talk to a few of them. And you know what? I, it was so amazing to see how self-aware these women were, and they were going through, you know, traumatic experiences, right? I mean, they're in a shelter just giving birth to a baby, and they don't really have their own home, right? And there's probably a lot of uncertainty, um, in their lives. But the self-awareness and accountability that each of them brought into the conversation was just amazing and, uh, really left an impact on me thinking, wow, you know, I, I came from. Very, uh, you know, middle class, well off as far as, um, having a home and very stable environment and things like that, financially and, just to realise that there's people out there that really are dealing with a lot of these life changes. And I was just, um, I was just blown away by their leadership. They were really good leaders, I felt like in that group. So what would you like to see being done in order to improve the system? If you had three sort of magic wishes, um, for making change in America? Well, I think we need, you know, in prenatal education, I think we need to have, you know, just like we have big focus on, um, you know, uh, lactation consulting, breastfeeding, all of those kind of issues, sleep, um, uh, sleeping patterns and, and different things like that. I think we need to really incorporate education around perinatal mood disorders, um, into it. So that's number one. Um, and then number two, I think, you know, in, in corporate America, I think we need to do more training for. Uh, leaders and managers to really understand how we can best support mothers because from the time that they give notice that they're pregnant, that's oftentimes a very anxious time for a working mother because they don't, they don't wanna let their team down. They don't wanna, they're not sure are they gonna get fired. Like, there's this misconceptions that have happened over the generations that, "Oh my gosh, when should we tell our employer that we're actually gonna be having a baby?" And there's almost a shame that's brought up, right? And I just think, gosh, this is not a shameful moment. And a lot of, a lot of leaders, um, you know, maybe, uh, perhaps you work in a male dominated industry, and so it brings on extra pressure there. But when once you have the conversation, you may realize that you actually have a lot more support than you think. So it's kind of helping both the employee and the employer come together in a proactive way. In those kind of conversations and career planning. And then when they return to work, obviously, you know, supporting and making sure that they're in the right position. And, uh, if they're returning to a high performance position, making sure that they're, um, supported as they ramp back in to the workplace. Because after 12 weeks, we only take 12 weeks off or less- a lot of cases people go back after six to eight weeks in America after having a baby. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. My god! Yeah. It's real. Right? Right. So your body and your mind, like, it's like this, "We have a baby and we have to get back at it." It's not the healthiest of situations. That is really shocking. Because in the UK I would say it's more like six months to a year that you take off and even then you might not feel ready to go back to work. So wow, that's a huge adjustment. And then you're thrown back into work? That's very tough. But that's the reality on the American woman. Some people don't even have the maternity leave, um, because of whatever their situation is. And so they feel like, oh, I'm just gonna go back after a few weeks. And oh, I, my heart goes out to them. I don't know how they do it. I really don't because your body is going through such physical changes, you're, you're recovering. Um, and, and you also want time with your baby that you just gave birth to. Like, you know, we kind of have these babies for a reason, and so, you know, we want that time with them to form a bond with them and routines, et cetera. So yeah, the American, uh, working mom, uh, really kind of shifts really quick, um, back into this, uh, hustle culture to "just keep hustling. Now it's hustle as a mum!" But you have all these additional responsibilities. And again, it's that thing, you know, when we were told, oh, we can have it all actually, is that serving us? You know? Exactly. I often ask that question. Careful what you wish for! Yeah. At what cost. Yeah! And then I think three, it's really standing in growing in personal development in your own leadership. When you are able to do that. When I was able to do that over, even, you know, the different therapy things that I did do, my breakthrough personally was in my own growth, in my own leadership in my life and my marriage and myself and my career, and really being authentic and truthful in what I wanted. Um, and so that really, I think is a core component for mums in general. I think maternal leadership, that's why I call myself a maternal leadership coach because I think that that in itself is very powerful. Absolutely. And you know, one of the things that you, you touched on, uh, much earlier on in this interview is about how, you know, you do lose confidence in your ability to make decisions when you're suffering from perinatal illness. And I mean, that's the thing that I couldn't quite comprehend was how I supposedly on paper, fairly successful person within the TV industry was reduced to, you know, I couldn't make decisions. I couldn't trust my own instincts. Um, and I was totally reduced to a shadow of myself. And I think sort of as you say, stepping back into your power and having that confidence and also that self-awareness to say, actually, you know what, this is what I want out of of life. I think that is such an empowering thing. And, um, I love that you are sharing all of your expertise with fellow mums out there. If you had one message to say to yourself when you were really struggling, when you were going through it and when you had lost yourself, what, what would you say? I would tell myself that. You haven't lost yourself. You're actually in there. Read your heart, reconnect with your heart, because that never changes, and it is always true to you. And you have that. So if you're looking for something, if you're looking for your power, you don't have to look outside of yourself, you really can just turn, tune in here and reconnect. Fabulous. And in terms of somebody who's going through it at the moment, what would you like to say to them? Yeah. That, you know, you're, you matter and you're, you're seen and you're heard. You are not alone. We have all gone through the darkness. Um, and, and you can get your way to the light. It doesn't have to be that you're gonna live the rest of your life, you know, feeling sad, irritable, angry, um, lost. You know, this, this is just a, a darker season that you can break through. Yeah. And, and you absolutely will come through and get to the other end. Thank you so much, Amy. You've been such an inspiring person to speak to and um, yeah, I love that you are, you are sort of spreading the, the goodness to other women. And I think the more we can share our stories and help each other up, society will be all the better for having more of us out there cheerleading. Definitely. Definitely. Thank you Vikki for, um, hosting this podcast and having me on. I appreciate it. I've absolutely loved chatting to you this afternoon. So, uh, thank you. And, uh, you were are so eloquent considering it's still early in the morning your end -must have been the waffle - the waffle and the Nutella! Nutella waffles and coffee! That is, that's like every food group ticked. Yeah, it's perfect! If you've enjoyed this episode of Blue MumDays, please like and subscribe It really does make the difference in helping other people find it and that means helping more parents.
