A Story of Conflict and Care - The Frontline Midwife: Anna Kent (Part 1)

ANNA KENT: 00:00:00

I'm flown to an area called Tam in South Sudan where I was the only

2

: 00:00:04

medical facility within a nine day walk,

with no roads and landmines and swamps.

3

: 00:00:09

I set up a health center there and we

saw about a thousand patients a month.

4

: 00:00:13

I say hospital, but it was, you know,

four mud huts with reed roofs that

5

: 00:00:17

you had to bend in half to get in.

6

: 00:00:19

One of the questions I often

get was that, "oh, why have a

7

: 00:00:22

baby anyway if you're in a war?"

8

: 00:00:24

It's because we're human and we

care and we yearn and we need,

9

: 00:00:28

and we're allowed to be women.

10

: 00:00:29

Right?

11

: 00:00:30

Everybody deserves access to healthcare

regardless of where in the world

12

: 00:00:34

they happen to have been born.

13

: 00:00:37

But the last thing I would want by writing

these experiences for people to minimalise

14

: 00:00:41

anybody else's birthing experience.

15

: 00:00:43

Whatever your experience is, that is

your experience, and that deserves

16

: 00:00:48

ceremony and it deserves respect

and it deserves a space to be shared

17

: 00:00:54

that's safe, you know, and improved on.

18

: 00:00:56

People in South Sudan deserve

gold standard maternity care.

19

: 00:01:00

Absolutely.

20

: 00:01:01

People in the UK deserve

gold standard maternity care.

21

: 00:01:03

So rather than feeling like we should

minimalise this experience for us,

22

: 00:01:07

because, you know, we have our maternity

scandals here, we are letting people down.

23

: 00:01:10

Let's rise up, let's expect

brilliance from all of it because

24

: 00:01:15

we can absolutely achieve it.

25

: 00:01:17

It just takes us to be co-ordinated.

26

: 00:01:20

We need a statutory minimum staffing.

27

: 00:01:22

And we need a really

comprehensive funding.

28

: 00:01:26

Having a baby is meant to be the

most joyful time of your life.

29

: 00:01:30

But for many mums, and dads,

it can be the hardest, and at

30

: 00:01:33

times the darkest of places.

31

: 00:01:36

Welcome to Season 3 of Blue

MumDays, the podcast for anyone

32

: 00:01:40

struggling with parenting.

33

: 00:01:42

You need to know that you are not alone.

34

: 00:01:45

And these awful feelings

will not be with you forever.

35

: 00:01:48

Just one word - all the stories

shared here are from the heart.

36

: 00:01:52

These are real conversations

and may be triggering, so

37

: 00:01:55

please listen with discretion.

38

: 00:01:58

Your wellbeing is so important, so if you

need to take a breather or stop listening,

39

: 00:02:03

please know that you can at any point.

40

: 00:02:06

Today's episode covers birthing

in extreme situations, birth trauma,

41

: 00:02:11

baby loss and post traumatic stress.

42

: 00:02:15

This episode was recorded

during the summer of: 2022

43

: 00:02:20

VIKKI: Today's guest is Anna Kent.

44

: 00:02:22

Anna is a humanitarian aid worker, N.H.S.

45

: 00:02:24

(National Health Service)

Nurse and Midwife.

46

: 00:02:26

After Receiving a nursing master's degree

from the University of Nottingham, she

47

: 00:02:31

completed a diploma in tropical nursing in

London and joined Medecins Sans Frontieres

48

: 00:02:36

- Doctors Without Borders - in 2007.

49

: 00:02:40

She gained her first degree in midwifery

in: 2010

50

: 00:02:45

across the world, including in South

Sudan, Haiti, Bangladesh, and the UK.

51

: 00:02:52

Delivering babies in war zones, Anna has

cared for the most vulnerable women in

52

: 00:02:56

the most vulnerable places in the world.

53

: 00:02:59

At 26 years old, not yet a fully

trained midwife, she delivered

54

: 00:03:03

a baby in a tropical storm by

the light of her head torch.

55

: 00:03:07

The following year, she would be

responsible for the female health of

56

: 00:03:10

30,000 Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh.

57

: 00:03:14

But returning to the UK to work for

the NHS, she soon learned that even

58

: 00:03:19

at home, the right to a safe birth

was impossible to take for granted.

59

: 00:03:23

In her recent memoir, 'Frontline

Midwife', Anna shares her extraordinary

60

: 00:03:27

experiences as a nurse, midwife and

mother, illuminating the lives of

61

: 00:03:32

women who are irreparably affected

by compromised access to healthcare.

62

: 00:03:37

I speak to Anna today, both

as expert midwife, but also as

63

: 00:03:41

a mum with lived experience.

64

: 00:03:43

Tragically, at just six months

pregnant, Anna had to give birth

65

: 00:03:47

to her first daughter, Fatima.

66

: 00:03:49

Fatima very sadly, died soon after

due to the rarest of brain conditions.

67

: 00:03:55

Happily, Anna's second daughter, Aisha

was born without incident in: 2016

68

: 00:04:01

Welcome to Blue MumDays

Anna, how are you today?

69

: 00:04:04

ANNA KENT: Yes.

70

: 00:04:05

Thanks so much for having me.

71

: 00:04:06

VIKKI: I'm so honoured.

72

: 00:04:07

So just for listeners, I came across

Anna's story through a magazine article.

73

: 00:04:13

I saw your story in it and I knew I had

to read your book and I desperately wanted

74

: 00:04:18

to have you on the podcast, because I

thought your story was just incredible.

75

: 00:04:23

And, having now read

the book, it's yeah...

76

: 00:04:26

I was having to apologise to Anna when

we first came on this call because

77

: 00:04:30

I've been blubbing this morning.

78

: 00:04:32

Regular listeners will know that I tend

to get quite teary and it's just the

79

: 00:04:36

most incredible life affirming, but

also heartbreaking read, you know, and

80

: 00:04:43

there's so much I want to cover with you.

81

: 00:04:46

Before we sort of talk about your own

experience of motherhood, I would love to

82

: 00:04:50

learn more about why you wanted to sort of

go on that crazy adventure to South Sudan,

83

: 00:04:56

as an aid worker in the first place?

84

: 00:04:59

ANNA KENT: Yeah.

85

: 00:04:59

So when I was a child, as a lot of us

still do, when you see war on the tv,

86

: 00:05:06

you see the next tsunami, you have this

feeling like, "this is so unjust and

87

: 00:05:10

I wish I could do something to help".

88

: 00:05:12

And I think that's something

that all of us experience.

89

: 00:05:15

And Live Aid was on TV when I was

a young child in the eighties.

90

: 00:05:19

And, you know, it can seem a little bit

cliche, but you know in my childhood way,

91

: 00:05:25

I just thought "starvation is wrong".

92

: 00:05:27

You know, these, these kids that I

could see on the TV were essentially

93

: 00:05:31

my age and I was surrounded by,

you know, everything I needed.

94

: 00:05:34

And yet people in the world can die

because they don't have enough food.

95

: 00:05:37

And, you know, it still

doesn't make sense.

96

: 00:05:38

You know, we should

still feel that outrage.

97

: 00:05:41

And it was really simplistic as a

child, you know, "I'm going to help".

98

: 00:05:44

And I thought it was as simple as that.

99

: 00:05:47

So I then trained as a nurse and I

was really pleased to get my Master's.

100

: 00:05:51

Went to Nottingham, moved from a,

like a sleepy Shropshire village.

101

: 00:05:54

Went to Nottingham.

102

: 00:05:55

Loved Nottingham, like I loved

the nightlife, I loved the

103

: 00:05:57

music, I loved like the art side.

104

: 00:06:01

And then I worked in A and E (Accident

and Emergency) in Nottingham, the

105

: 00:06:03

QMC for three years full-time.

106

: 00:06:06

And we'd see everything - we'd see

gunshot wounds and we'd see knife wounds.

107

: 00:06:10

And I think at that point when I joined,

we had something like a knife wound every

108

: 00:06:15

five days and a gunshot wound every eight.

109

: 00:06:17

It was a lot, let's say.

110

: 00:06:20

Um, and I just, I still had that sense,

was "I feel like there's more I can do

111

: 00:06:24

for the wider world", because all these

international events kept happening and

112

: 00:06:29

I've never felt, because something may

happen in South Sudan, it doesn't feel

113

: 00:06:34

so different to me than if it was to

happen in a city where I'm not living.

114

: 00:06:37

So something big was to

say, happen in Liverpool.

115

: 00:06:41

That feels as close to me as if

it was to happen in South Africa.

116

: 00:06:46

Again, it sounds a bit cliche, but I feel

like a citizen of the world and not so

117

: 00:06:49

much like a citizen of a particular place.

118

: 00:06:53

And I felt really connected

to Medecins Sans Frontieres.

119

: 00:06:56

They work in over seven

countries worldwide and provide

120

: 00:06:59

medical assistance to anybody.

121

: 00:07:01

So it's regardless of your side and

the war, and it's regardless of your

122

: 00:07:04

sex and your gender, it's regardless

of any like political affiliations.

123

: 00:07:08

And I really connect to that, because

that felt it represented my own core

124

: 00:07:12

beliefs that everybody deserves access

to healthcare regardless of where in

125

: 00:07:16

the world they happen to have been born.

126

: 00:07:17

Because you know, we

don't choose this do we?

127

: 00:07:20

I did a short work experience in Zambia,

which really opened my eyes in the

128

: 00:07:25

rural hospital where I volunteered.

129

: 00:07:27

They'd had an x-ray machine

donated by a UK charity.

130

: 00:07:31

But the National Grid in Zambia

at that time couldn't draw enough

131

: 00:07:34

energy to actually power it!

132

: 00:07:35

And it was my first introduction that you

can have very good intentions, but unless

133

: 00:07:40

the aid is very thoughtfully given, you

know, this x-ray machine now also takes

134

: 00:07:46

up clinical space and collects dust.

135

: 00:07:48

So it was my first eye-open that

it's not as simple as "doing your

136

: 00:07:53

bit" (definitely inverted commas!)

137

: 00:07:55

And I felt MSF because it was such

a well regarded organisation, I felt

138

: 00:07:59

that the sort of work that I'd be doing

represented the sort of work I believed

139

: 00:08:04

in, like on a core sort of moral level.

140

: 00:08:08

So I studied tropical medicine in London.

141

: 00:08:11

So that helped bridge the gap between...

142

: 00:08:13

because you know, you can be the

most trained A and E nurse in the

143

: 00:08:16

whole world, but if somebody's

got malaria or schistosomiasis or

144

: 00:08:19

leishmaniasis and you don't know what

that is or what to do with it, you are

145

: 00:08:22

basically rendered completely useless.

146

: 00:08:24

So I studied tropical medicine

and had some interviews with MSF

147

: 00:08:28

and it's quite hard to join them.

148

: 00:08:29

And we went on this big expo in

Germany where we were taken at half

149

: 00:08:32

two in the morning in a frozen forest.

150

: 00:08:35

So I, you know, got my first

mission to South Sudan and I

151

: 00:08:38

was, I knew it would be tough.

152

: 00:08:39

You know, South Sudan had had

50 years of civil war, so of

153

: 00:08:44

course it was gonna be difficult.

154

: 00:08:45

I didn't ever imagine it was gonna be

some like gungho gap year adventure.

155

: 00:08:50

I wasn't that naive, but, you know,

stepped off feeling a bit cool

156

: 00:08:54

with my MSF logo and onto this

flight into South Sudan from Kenya.

157

: 00:08:59

But like, everything's kind of

falling in on itself and the cargo

158

: 00:09:01

plane is a bit battered and still

like, "oh I still feel alright".

159

: 00:09:05

And then we landed.

160

: 00:09:08

On one side was a burnt out cargo plane

that had been shot down .On the other

161

: 00:09:11

side was a landmine field, because

there were millions of landmines across

162

: 00:09:13

South Sudan at that time in 2007.

163

: 00:09:16

And heat comes in, it's 50 degrees.

164

: 00:09:19

Have you ever been in 50 degrees?

165

: 00:09:21

Like I I know it sounds

stupid, but it's hot!

166

: 00:09:24

And you know, I just thought,

"I don't know if I can breathe.

167

: 00:09:27

I don't know if I can breathe and

function, how am I gonna work here?"

168

: 00:09:30

Flies come in.

169

: 00:09:31

It was all very much "me, me, me,

I'm really struggling with this".

170

: 00:09:35

And then the first patient was

loaded on and basically she was

171

: 00:09:38

on a stretcher made of sticks.

172

: 00:09:41

And the smell...

173

: 00:09:43

like, it sounds so uncaring, but it

was the worst, literally the worst.

174

: 00:09:48

It was like sewers.

175

: 00:09:50

It was dreadful for her.

176

: 00:09:52

Her experience had been the war

had taken away the hospitals.

177

: 00:09:56

The war had taken away the midwives,

the war had taken away the nurses,

178

: 00:09:59

the war had taken away all of her

access to any form of healthcare.

179

: 00:10:02

And she was pregnant.

180

: 00:10:03

And we can maybe talk about this

more later, but women don't always

181

: 00:10:07

have a choice about being pregnant.

182

: 00:10:09

They don't always have the right to

say no to sex and even wars and women

183

: 00:10:14

are allowed to want a baby as well.

184

: 00:10:16

You know, it's one of the questions

I often get, probably not from

185

: 00:10:19

your listenership, I would guess,

was that, "oh, why have a baby

186

: 00:10:22

anyway if you're in a war?"

187

: 00:10:23

It's because we're human and we

care and we yearn and we need,

188

: 00:10:28

and we're allowed to be women.

189

: 00:10:29

Right?

190

: 00:10:30

So she'd had a pregnancy and no access

to healthcare and what can happen if

191

: 00:10:36

you've experienced starvation as a child,

is that your pelvis, so your girdle

192

: 00:10:42

doesn't grow to its potential because of

malnutrition, starvation, lack of access

193

: 00:10:49

to the basics that we take for granted.

194

: 00:10:52

But if you then have better nutrition

in pregnancy, your body will grow

195

: 00:10:56

a baby to its genetic potentials.

196

: 00:10:58

You have a pelvis that is is too small and

a baby's head that is too big to fit up.

197

: 00:11:03

So cephalopelvic disproportion is the

technical term, but basically the baby

198

: 00:11:07

will never be born vaginally in that case.

199

: 00:11:11

And she had no access to anything.

200

: 00:11:13

Her baby had died probably two

years before I'd met her and

201

: 00:11:18

...

VIKKI: Oh my gosh!

202

: 00:11:19

ANNA KENT: She had then,

so she'd had baby loss.

203

: 00:11:21

So that's her first level of harm.

204

: 00:11:25

And then the body was still inside.

205

: 00:11:28

Sorry, we're launching straight

into the graphics, but you know,

206

: 00:11:31

this is a woman's experience.

207

: 00:11:33

It's important to talk about her.

208

: 00:11:34

And then that baby's body, as it eroded,

had caused a hole between her vagina

209

: 00:11:41

into her bladder and into her bowel.

210

: 00:11:43

So everything we pass into the

toilet, she passed vaginally.

211

: 00:11:47

And that's what made the stench, with

want of a better way of describing it.

212

: 00:11:52

So her family had then disowned

her, her next level of harm.

213

: 00:11:57

And she was septic and she was dying

to this, you know, this pregnancy

214

: 00:12:02

that I don't, I don't know what the

start of the journey was for her.

215

: 00:12:05

Maybe she was happy about the

pregnancy, maybe she wasn't, you know.

216

: 00:12:09

But it was gonna kill

her and she had nobody.

217

: 00:12:12

Nobody in the whole world.

218

: 00:12:13

And so this woman is loaded

onto this stretcher next to me.

219

: 00:12:17

This lady's actually remained unnamed.

220

: 00:12:19

So to my shame, the woman on the plane,

I absolutely committed in my heart.

221

: 00:12:25

I want to, to know what her name is.

222

: 00:12:26

I want to know what happened to her.

223

: 00:12:28

But I felt, you know, I

didn't know what to do.

224

: 00:12:30

I'd never seen obstetric fistula.

225

: 00:12:31

I'd never seen

cephalopelvic disproportion.

226

: 00:12:34

I just thought, I don't know how to help

you, but I've got so much I need to learn.

227

: 00:12:39

And then suddenly you're not

recognising that it's 50 degrees heat.

228

: 00:12:41

You're not really seeing the

fact that you're covered in flies

229

: 00:12:44

either, because the core reason of

being there was to help somebody.

230

: 00:12:47

And I failed her.

231

: 00:12:48

I didn't know what to do.

232

: 00:12:49

Thankfully, on rushed the MSF team,

they know what they were doing.

233

: 00:12:52

And we flew to a surgical site, you

know, we landed and she was unloaded

234

: 00:12:56

to go to the surgical hospital.

235

: 00:12:58

It's like the only hospital, I think in

the geographical area the size of Belgium.

236

: 00:13:02

And thank god this, you know,

brilliant team could step in and

237

: 00:13:06

fill the gaps of what I couldn't do.

238

: 00:13:09

And I committed to myself that

I'd find out what happened to her.

239

: 00:13:11

But then the next minute I'm,

then I'm flown to an area called

240

: 00:13:15

Tam, where I was the only medical

facility within a nine day walk with

241

: 00:13:20

no roads and landmines and swamps.

242

: 00:13:23

I set up a health center there and we

saw about a thousand patients a month.

243

: 00:13:26

And then the next, the next,

next thing, the next thing.

244

: 00:13:29

And to my shame, I never...

245

: 00:13:30

I didn't find out what happened to

her, I didn't find out her name,

246

: 00:13:33

and I did have a chance within the

book to apologise to her for that.

247

: 00:13:37

I also, it was a commitment to me that I

will never, ever, ever treat another woman

248

: 00:13:42

where she doesn't at least have a name.

249

: 00:13:45

And so that was one of the points

of writing my book was I held all

250

: 00:13:50

these stories and all these, like, I

got to meet, meet people in such an

251

: 00:13:55

intimate and dangerous and scary for

them especially, time in their life.

252

: 00:14:02

And, you know, it was a privilege to

share these stories and I didn't know

253

: 00:14:06

what to do with all these stories.

254

: 00:14:08

So I committed to writing the

book as a form of testimonial

255

: 00:14:11

to their lived experiences.

256

: 00:14:13

Absolutely putting my hands up as a

privileged white woman from England,

257

: 00:14:17

it should not be me writing this book.

258

: 00:14:19

I absolutely acknowledge that.

259

: 00:14:21

And I sat with it for

probably at least two years.

260

: 00:14:24

Really like trying to find my way through

this sense of privilege and the sense

261

: 00:14:32

of, I guess, the vicarious existence.

262

: 00:14:36

But I felt that if I didn't say these

stories at this point, then nobody did.

263

: 00:14:40

Because some of the women that I

worked with died and so do these

264

: 00:14:44

stories never get told at all?

265

: 00:14:46

So I felt, I will tell them with the

absolute acknowledgement that in a

266

: 00:14:51

perfect world it shouldn't be me.

267

: 00:14:54

That was a long, that was a

long answer to your question!

268

: 00:14:57

VIKKI: My my goodness.

269

: 00:14:58

I mean, wow, we've only just got started!

270

: 00:15:01

If I could just for a second

go back to what you said about

271

: 00:15:05

watching the television programs

and the news when you were a child.

272

: 00:15:09

I have to commend you because so

many of us, yes, were horrified, but

273

: 00:15:13

apart from like giving, you know,

donating to charity, how many people

274

: 00:15:17

actually do something about it?

275

: 00:15:20

And I think it's incredible what

you've done, not from a sort of 'white

276

: 00:15:25

saviour' point of view, but from a

humanitarian point of view and seeing

277

: 00:15:29

ANNA KENT: I guess it's good

to acknowledge that some, like

278

: 00:15:31

especially with charities, they

do need, you know, fiver in the

279

: 00:15:34

charity pot and that is okay as well.

280

: 00:15:37

You do not have to be knee deep

in swamp, in a one man tent in

281

: 00:15:42

South Sudan with scorpions and

snakes, to be a humanitarian.

282

: 00:15:46

Like we have to care and look, we're here

chatting in the UK about women's rights

283

: 00:15:51

and access to healthcare in South Sudan.

284

: 00:15:53

So that is humanitarian.

285

: 00:15:54

I think for absolutely, you know, I

have retired from humanitarian work.

286

: 00:15:59

For now, we'll see!

287

: 00:16:01

And again, we can cover this a bit

more later, but it's, we all have

288

: 00:16:07

a role and I think it's, we can

get really exhausted, can't we?

289

: 00:16:11

And you know, the next

issue and the next problem.

290

: 00:16:15

And sometimes you can get

exhausted from caring as well.

291

: 00:16:18

You can get compassion fatigue.

292

: 00:16:20

You know, I did learn the hard way.

293

: 00:16:22

Unless you look after yourself

and your own mental health, you

294

: 00:16:24

are useless then to everybody.

295

: 00:16:26

So there, there is always a balance.

296

: 00:16:29

I think if anybody feels like they have

anything extra that they can spare, that

297

: 00:16:33

they can give, then regardless of what

level that is, that is humanitarianism

298

: 00:16:39

and that's what we should celebrate.

299

: 00:16:43

Everybody's got their own

reasons for being in the fields.

300

: 00:16:46

Some people have something to prove,

like one of the guys I worked with,

301

: 00:16:49

his dad was a Texas oil tycoon and

he was basically giving his middle,

302

: 00:16:54

giving his middle finger up to his dad.

303

: 00:16:55

You know, there is no such

thing as a martyr, everybody

304

: 00:16:59

has their own stuff going on.

305

: 00:17:02

And so it's rather than feel smaller,

because maybe other people do more, let's

306

: 00:17:07

all feel bigger by doing what we can.

307

: 00:17:09

I think that's the important thing.

308

: 00:17:11

VIKKI: Beautifully put.

309

: 00:17:13

I'd love just for a very brief

moment to chat about James because

310

: 00:17:19

was I mean, it's incredible reading

the book because he seems like

311

: 00:17:23

such a larger than life character.

312

: 00:17:24

He feels like a character from a

novel rather than a real life person!

313

: 00:17:30

ANNA KENT: But bear in mind I

hated James when I first met him!

314

: 00:17:32

right when I Me and

James chat all the time.

315

: 00:17:35

He's probably even better

than I could describe.

316

: 00:17:38

Although my mum recently said,

"I'd love to meet James".

317

: 00:17:40

I was like, thing is, I don't know.

318

: 00:17:44

He's so crass and that doesn't

always communicate and he does

319

: 00:17:49

it completely satirically.

320

: 00:17:52

He's an asshole.

321

: 00:17:53

But he tries to be like, he would love it.

322

: 00:17:55

The more dreadful things I say about him,

the more he would absolutely love it.

323

: 00:17:59

So it is completely said

with, with his consent, I'm

324

: 00:18:01

sure.

325

: 00:18:02

So yeah, so I landed in Tam and out of the

dust, literally in his cowboy hat (because

326

: 00:18:09

he's such an ... knob!) strides James,

so James at that time was in his sixties.

327

: 00:18:14

I think I was 26 and I think he was 62.

328

: 00:18:18

Anyway, out of the dust comes James.

329

: 00:18:21

So his mum was a heroin addict

when he was born in the States.

330

: 00:18:25

And his parents were alcoholics.

331

: 00:18:28

His dad was also incestuous

with his disabled sister.

332

: 00:18:32

So a really difficult beginning

in life, like in middle America.

333

: 00:18:38

His parents couldn't cope with him

so he was sent to live with his

334

: 00:18:41

alcoholic grandma near the woods.

335

: 00:18:43

And his grandma had a Sicilian

second husband who ran

336

: 00:18:47

a liquor store as he put it.

337

: 00:18:50

And basically he had to collect

wood in the forest and he

338

: 00:18:53

hated his grandpa for it.

339

: 00:18:56

He became an alcoholic himself.

340

: 00:18:59

He was a Hell's Angel.

341

: 00:19:00

He had lots of children with lots

of different women and he traveled

342

: 00:19:03

the world and he didn't give a shit.

343

: 00:19:06

He was always quite a pacifist

and he wanted to escape

344

: 00:19:09

being conscribed to Vietnam.

345

: 00:19:10

So he went to go and live in the

Middle East and eat cabbage for a

346

: 00:19:13

month because he didn't have any

money, instead of being subscribed.

347

: 00:19:16

Like a really, like wacky life existence.

348

: 00:19:19

My belief is he always had a core love

for humans, but it was underneath a

349

: 00:19:23

drug-fueled, alcohol- fueled anger at his

parents, 'motorbike-gang' kind of persona.

350

: 00:19:30

So when I met him, James had got a

shaved head and a handlebar moustache...

351

: 00:19:33

VIKKI: Of course he did, yeah!

352

: 00:19:35

(laughs)

353

: 00:19:35

ANNA KENT: You know when tattoos

are sort of done like with literally

354

: 00:19:38

like a needle and ink and then they

fade into pale blue and stuff.

355

: 00:19:43

And I was like, "really?!"

356

: 00:19:44

is this my only international

partner for like the next year?!"

357

: 00:19:47

That was my honest thought.

358

: 00:19:49

VIKKI: I mean, God, what a culture shock!

359

: 00:19:51

ANNA KENT: Yeah, absolutely.

360

: 00:19:51

Yeah.

361

: 00:19:52

Yeah.

362

: 00:19:53

And he'd been in prison for

marijuana possession and he loved

363

: 00:19:57

telling me all these stories.

364

: 00:19:58

And at first, like, I didn't appreciate

the importance of storytelling.

365

: 00:20:04

I didn't appreciate it.

366

: 00:20:05

I was very British and "I'm here

to be serious and do a serious

367

: 00:20:08

thing and we're in a war zone".

368

: 00:20:10

And he was like, "wow,

gee, isn't this great?

369

: 00:20:12

Oh yeah, let's do this".

370

: 00:20:13

And I just thought, " you're an idiot!"

371

: 00:20:15

Like, what was MSF thinking

putting me with you?

372

: 00:20:18

And then slowly, slowly, like over the

campfires and basically, so we had,

373

: 00:20:21

I worked with 10 Sudanese national

staff who were absolutely phenomenal.

374

: 00:20:27

Most of them had never had

the privilege of schooling.

375

: 00:20:28

And so we were working on like

basic calculations for drugs and...

376

: 00:20:35

One of the guys I was working with who was

so diligent, like he'd basically had three

377

: 00:20:39

of his fingers blasted off by helicopter

gunship and he'd never learned to write,

378

: 00:20:43

but he was our registrar, our bookkeeper.

379

: 00:20:46

And so we were working with this amazing,

dedicated, wonderful team that had

380

: 00:20:51

they had the privilege of education

would've been far excelling me in

381

: 00:20:54

anything that I've achieved in life.

382

: 00:20:55

Absolutely.

383

: 00:20:57

And James was my, my only

international colleague.

384

: 00:21:00

So we were camping together in our

tents in this little compound that was

385

: 00:21:04

about 10 steps from the actual hospital.

386

: 00:21:05

And I say hospital, but it was, you

know, four mud huts with reed roofs

387

: 00:21:09

that you had to bend in half to get in.

388

: 00:21:11

You could just about stand up

straight in the middle of it.

389

: 00:21:13

VIKKI: So the patients had

to wait by the Waiting Tree?

390

: 00:21:18

ANNA KENT: Trees are big, big things.

391

: 00:21:20

They've got a lot of value in South Sudan.

392

: 00:21:24

So there's the Nile that runs through

South Sudan and there's swamps.

393

: 00:21:27

We were west up a Nile region,

but basically in every single

394

: 00:21:30

direction it's just completely flat.

395

: 00:21:31

And it's just this like

dark reddy, brownie earth.

396

: 00:21:35

It was dry season when I

landed and became rain season.

397

: 00:21:38

There's nothing, there's

no scrub, there's no trees.

398

: 00:21:40

Like, for every single part of the

horizon, just these amazing tukuls

399

: 00:21:44

that people could build from the

building materials they had access to.

400

: 00:21:48

So yeah, we had four tukuls for

the hospital and the community had

401

: 00:21:54

basically said we could build them

next to two big trees in the village.

402

: 00:21:58

That's why the village

had been built there.

403

: 00:22:00

One of them was where you had town

meetings and people would meet with

404

: 00:22:05

their spears and have discussions

and like the informal court and

405

: 00:22:09

stuff that was under the other tree.

406

: 00:22:11

And sometimes there was a

school, but not all the time.

407

: 00:22:14

And then our one, the second tree of

the village, that was our Waiting Tree.

408

: 00:22:17

So yeah, when we put tarp on the floor,

we could fit - in the shade of it up,

409

: 00:22:21

until about 11:30 in the morning - we

could fit about a hundred people.

410

: 00:22:25

And they sat in really

calm, respectful queues.

411

: 00:22:30

If somebody was more poorly, they

would push them to the front.

412

: 00:22:33

You know, it's not quite the same

as what I'd experienced in A and E!.

413

: 00:22:35

It was like...

414

: 00:22:37

VIKKI: yeah.

415

: 00:22:37

ANNA KENT: ...in my face.

416

: 00:22:38

And, you know, for, let's have compassion.

417

: 00:22:41

So when people are stressed and

when they're scared, they're

418

: 00:22:44

not always particularly polite.

419

: 00:22:45

And I can empathise with that.

420

: 00:22:46

When we're scared we're not always our

best selves or our most thoughtful selves.

421

: 00:22:51

But the lived experience for people

in South Sudan was, I guess lower

422

: 00:22:55

expectations, which isn't right,

but it's, um, yeah, people would

423

: 00:22:58

push the most sick to the front.

424

: 00:23:01

VIKKI: One of the most incredible things

from your book is how these women that

425

: 00:23:08

you would see - because you weren't

a midwife at this point, were you?

426

: 00:23:11

ANNA KENT: I point was an A and E nurse.

427

: 00:23:12

I'd seen one birth!

428

: 00:23:14

I'd volunteered for a little bit

in Nottingham Maternity Unit before

429

: 00:23:17

going and I'd had book-based training.

430

: 00:23:20

But yeah, I wasn't a midwife.

431

: 00:23:21

And James in his full insight was

like, "well, I don't do OBGYN!"

432

: 00:23:27

(Obs Gynae is how they say it).

433

: 00:23:28

And we'd had this lady come

to us in the middle of the

434

: 00:23:31

night with a retained placenta.

435

: 00:23:32

VIKKI: And these women were sort

of having to walk for miles and

436

: 00:23:37

days through swamps and landmines.

437

: 00:23:41

ANNA KENT: We were the only healthcare

facility for a nine day walk.

438

: 00:23:43

So then people weighed up -in

their village with no access to

439

: 00:23:46

a midwife or doctor or nurse- "is

it worth the risk of the walk?"

440

: 00:23:52

But also for women with low

social status, is, "is anybody

441

: 00:23:55

going to help me get there?"

442

: 00:23:57

So people who had a vaginal

birth that came without

443

: 00:24:01

complications didn't come to us.

444

: 00:24:03

The people that came to us,

it was an obstructed labour.

445

: 00:24:06

And then we were already days and days

and days down down the line you know.

446

: 00:24:11

VIKKI: The physical and mental

strength..., as, as somebody who's

447

: 00:24:15

had contractions once in their

life, I couldn't move, you know?

448

: 00:24:20

Let alone do a 9 day

walk through landmines.

449

: 00:24:24

ANNA KENT: But if you thought you were

gonna die, that's what it comes too, yeah.

450

: 00:24:28

There was a local saying that 'pregnant

women have one foot in the grave'.

451

: 00:24:31

Um, That's the price you pay for being in

a war zone with no access to healthcare.

452

: 00:24:37

VIKKI: But I think it's so, so,

SO important to name these women

453

: 00:24:40

and tell their stories because

otherwise they become statistics.

454

: 00:24:44

And statistics means it's

like one step removed.

455

: 00:24:47

And I mean, with the horrors that's

going on in Ukraine, the thing that

456

: 00:24:50

really angered and upset me the most

was how, I remember like there was an

457

: 00:24:56

American news journalist who was talking

about, "these are people like us."

458

: 00:25:01

Because they were white people and

because they were like middle class

459

: 00:25:05

people that it was somehow worse than

if it was village or tribes people

460

: 00:25:12

in South Sudan or Africa, wherever.

461

: 00:25:15

ANNA KENT: Is a war worse in Europe

than it is in sub-Saharan Africa?

462

: 00:25:22

Absolutely.

463

: 00:25:24

That's one of the things that

I loved about MSF it, you know,

464

: 00:25:26

MSF is working in Ukraine.

465

: 00:25:27

They've got this amazing hospital train

that goes, it's running on the train

466

: 00:25:31

tracks and patients are loaded and

treated on the train, which is phenomenal.

467

: 00:25:35

You know, it's a phenomenal logistics.

468

: 00:25:37

But we also, also working in

Sierra Leone and we are in Congo

469

: 00:25:40

when we are in Papua New Guinea.

470

: 00:25:41

You know, I can reel off all, all

the words, but it's, that's it.

471

: 00:25:45

My core belief is, and you know,

when we dig down, I think most people

472

: 00:25:50

actually, when you question it, also

believe that everyone, regardless of

473

: 00:25:56

where they are, does deserve access.

474

: 00:25:58

And one of the things I found after

writing about the maternal experience in

475

: 00:26:03

South Sudan was a couple of people have

come to me from their birth experiences

476

: 00:26:07

in the UK and said, "oh, I feel bad

because I feel traumatised from my birth.

477

: 00:26:11

But it's not as bad as Nyabol in South

Sudan, as Nyawan in South Sudan, as Grace

478

: 00:26:18

in South Sudan, as Mia in Bangladesh."

479

: 00:26:20

You know, it's...

480

: 00:26:23

But the last thing I would want by writing

these experiences for people to minimalise

481

: 00:26:27

anybody else's birthing experience.

482

: 00:26:29

And actually we should all be aiming

for gold standard maternity care.

483

: 00:26:33

And there's actually no reason,

there's no practical reason

484

: 00:26:36

why we can't deliver it here.

485

: 00:26:38

You know, that you don't get more

dedicated people than student midwives.

486

: 00:26:41

Like seriously, it's really

competitive to get in.

487

: 00:26:43

They accrue a lot of depth for training.

488

: 00:26:46

You know, there is no more

keen team of workforce, I

489

: 00:26:51

believe, than student midwives.

490

: 00:26:54

And yet at the recent Royal

College Of Midwives data is that

491

: 00:26:58

out of every thirty we train, we

retain one into the workforce.

492

: 00:27:01

VIKKI: Wow!

493

: 00:27:02

Really?

494

: 00:27:02

ANNA KENT: So it's - that's

one part of it.

495

: 00:27:04

So what I would always fight for is,

yes, absolutely, people in South Sudan

496

: 00:27:09

deserve gold standard maternity care.

497

: 00:27:12

Absolutely people in the UK deserve

gold standard maternity care.

498

: 00:27:15

So rather than feeling like we should

minimalise this experience for us,

499

: 00:27:19

because, you know, we have our maternity

scandals here, we are letting people down.

500

: 00:27:23

Let's rise up, let's expect

brilliance from all of it because

501

: 00:27:27

we can absolutely achieve it.

502

: 00:27:29

It just takes us to be co-ordinated.

503

: 00:27:32

I believe, we need a

statutory minimum staffing.

504

: 00:27:34

Because it all starts, all the shit

show starts from a poorly staffed

505

: 00:27:39

shift or unit, chronic underfunding.

506

: 00:27:42

And yeah, we need a really

comprehensive funding.

507

: 00:27:46

You know, that's, that's my little byline.

508

: 00:27:48

It's not quite what we're here

to talk about, but we are talking

509

: 00:27:50

about maternity experiences.

510

: 00:27:51

So if anybody's listening, what

I'd really like to avoid is to

511

: 00:27:55

minimalise anybody's experience.

512

: 00:27:58

whatever your experience is, that is

your experience, and that deserves

513

: 00:28:02

ceremony and it deserves respect

and it deserves a space to be shared

514

: 00:28:09

that's safe, you know, and improved on.

515

: 00:28:11

So, yeah, I know that you absolutely

work for it as well, but this,

516

: 00:28:15

this is definitely a safe space for

whatever somebody's experience is.

517

: 00:28:19

VIKKI: I think that's such an

important point you make Anna.

518

: 00:28:22

And just to say to anybody that

might be listening to this podcast

519

: 00:28:27

for the first time, if you have

experienced birth trauma, then

520

: 00:28:32

you have experienced birth trauma.

521

: 00:28:34

If you felt traumatised by

your birth, it doesn't have to

522

: 00:28:37

have been a medical emergency.

523

: 00:28:40

Your life or your baby's life don't

necessarily have to have been in danger

524

: 00:28:45

for it to have been traumatic for you.

525

: 00:28:47

And I would advise you to

listen to the episode with Dr.

526

: 00:28:51

Rebecca Moore of Make Birth Better, and

she talks about birth trauma in such a,

527

: 00:28:58

a sensitive and truly galvanising way.

528

: 00:29:03

And I've found that for

myself, incredibly healing.

529

: 00:29:06

Because you suffer a lot of guilt

for, you know, "how can I not be

530

: 00:29:10

coping when everybody else copes?"

531

: 00:29:11

ANNA KENT: When mum guilt

sucks anyway, right?!

532

: 00:29:14

VIKKI: Oh my God yeah!

533

: 00:29:15

so obviously, I could talk to you for

hours about just your experiences in Tam.

534

: 00:29:20

And I think as well there are some

really heartbreaking experiences

535

: 00:29:26

that you had with, mothers and

babies and, very traumatic births.

536

: 00:29:31

You know, if anybody would

like to read more, the book is

537

: 00:29:34

available through Bloomsbury?

538

: 00:29:36

ANNA KENT: Bloomsbury, yeah.

539

: 00:29:36

Available at all good bookshops, yeah.

540

: 00:29:39

VIKKI: It's called 'Frontline

Midwife, My Story Of Survival

541

: 00:29:42

And Keeping Others Safe'.

542

: 00:29:43

And it is, my God, it's a,

cracking read for anybody that's

543

: 00:29:47

just interested in life in other

countries, you know, in refugee camps.

544

: 00:29:53

And I found it so profound early

on when you talked about...

545

: 00:29:57

I mean, obviously the first few

months of adjusting to life in South

546

: 00:30:01

Sudan, it was really, really tough.

547

: 00:30:05

And you could sense how freaked out

you were by the whole situation.

548

: 00:30:10

But then interestingly, when you had your

sort of breaks and came back to the UK,

549

: 00:30:15

you actually started to feel out of water

there because South Sudan became your

550

: 00:30:21

new reality and your new sense of home

551

: 00:30:24

ANNA KENT: So we worked in Tam in

another town called Koch, and then

552

: 00:30:28

we also sometimes had to cover the

staffing in Lair, which had the surgical

553

: 00:30:32

hospital., I remember on one of the

days in Lair, I was kneeling down on

554

: 00:30:36

the floor with a baby that was sick

and we'd run out space in the hostel.

555

: 00:30:40

So we had a ward under the

trees, which was basically people

556

: 00:30:43

construct their own mosquito nets

and, and we'd nursed them there.

557

: 00:30:46

And I can remember a black

mamba slithered past my foot.

558

: 00:30:50

VIKKI: Oh my gosh.

559

: 00:30:51

ANNA KENT: Black mambas aren't

that big and they're a bit silvery

560

: 00:30:53

looking, but I knew it was a black

mamba and you definitely don't

561

: 00:30:56

wanna get bitten by a black mamba.

562

: 00:30:59

But I was so focused on this child,

and I knew black mambas were around,

563

: 00:31:05

you know, we'd seen red cobras and

we'd seen green snakes and tarantulas

564

: 00:31:08

and uh, you know, we'd see, I

don't know, 10, 20 scorpions a day.

565

: 00:31:11

It wasn't ever okay.

566

: 00:31:13

But it was, and it was, I think it

was months later - I'd forgotten this

567

: 00:31:17

moment - I woke up in night, like "arrgh!"

568

: 00:31:21

A black mamba slithered like

two inches from my foot!

569

: 00:31:24

And I didn't even

570

: 00:31:26

realise it, like that's how much my

world had changed to because you do, you

571

: 00:31:31

have to live, like in my little tent,

we'd clean out our tents on the Sunday.

572

: 00:31:34

You know, James would be telling

me some story about like an

573

: 00:31:37

ex-girlfriend or something.

574

: 00:31:37

He was such a brilliant

storyteller and it's so important.

575

: 00:31:40

I think storytelling is to be human.

576

: 00:31:43

VIKKI: We need to get him

to do his own podcast!.

577

: 00:31:45

ANNA KENT: Oh my God, he'd be brilliant

and wonderful and dreadful all in one.

578

: 00:31:49

He has no filter whatsoever!

579

: 00:31:52

And we'd clean out our tents and you

know, we were in a one man tent, so I

580

: 00:31:56

had my roll mat, like my yoga mat, which

was just a roll mat, that was my bedding.

581

: 00:32:00

Then on one side I had my diary and

I had my, a couple of photos and

582

: 00:32:04

that was my like social stuff and

the book I was reading and my head

583

: 00:32:08

torch was always around my neck.

584

: 00:32:10

You had to be ready for like

the nighttime emergencies.

585

: 00:32:12

On the other side was my medical kit and

it was all in exactly the same place.

586

: 00:32:15

You know, that was life and you know,

that tent was my home and I, you know,

587

: 00:32:20

People at home going, "oh God, you're

living in a tent, how dreadful."

588

: 00:32:22

But people that I was with, because the

great thing about a tent is when you

589

: 00:32:25

zip the outside, the scorpions can't

get in and the mosquitoes can't get in.

590

: 00:32:28

So actually it all

works very functionally.

591

: 00:32:31

And the people who like in

the local community is like,

592

: 00:32:33

"wow, look at this technology.

593

: 00:32:34

This is really like space age".

594

: 00:32:36

Not the reference of space, but you

get the point I'm trying to make.

595

: 00:32:40

So it was, you know, the tent is

the continuous thing is just a

596

: 00:32:44

tent, but from one side it's this

dreadful basic way of living.

597

: 00:32:47

From the other perspective, it's

this really high tech stuff.

598

: 00:32:49

So it, it's all about your perspective,

but that was, you know, that was home.

599

: 00:32:53

And then to come back and, you know, very

rightly so, all my friends that I was

600

: 00:32:57

really close to, I didn't really have the

language to explain how I was feeling.

601

: 00:33:01

And people would say, "oh,

how was South Sudan?"

602

: 00:33:04

And you'd be like, "well, you

know, do you wanna hear one thing?

603

: 00:33:07

Do you wanna hear 20 things.

604

: 00:33:07

I could talk for the next six

months and not be finished.

605

: 00:33:10

Like how much do you want to know?"

606

: 00:33:12

And, you People often, I don't

know, would like a really tidy

607

: 00:33:17

story about good winning over evil.

608

: 00:33:20

And we all save the day.

609

: 00:33:21

And that's not humanitarianism.

610

: 00:33:23

Like humanitarian work

in war zones is dreadful.

611

: 00:33:28

It's dreadful every day.

612

: 00:33:29

Every day is horrid.

613

: 00:33:31

You do some good.

614

: 00:33:32

Absolutely you do, but you also

bear witness to the million

615

: 00:33:34

things that you can't do.

616

: 00:33:35

So for the women that we

did save, who would've died

617

: 00:33:39

without MSF's presence there.

618

: 00:33:41

You know, you then wave them off

across the runway and they walk

619

: 00:33:44

back across the landmine field.

620

: 00:33:45

And you know, I don't know if they'll

get malaria in the next day or you know,

621

: 00:33:49

the war will come rolling in closer.

622

: 00:33:53

When I was there, it'd been 50

years of civil war and there

623

: 00:33:54

was actually a break in the war.

624

: 00:33:56

But it's, yeah, it was a conflict

zone to use the official term.

625

: 00:34:00

You know, so I found it

hard to know the language.

626

: 00:34:02

I also had a sense that these

stories could poison other people.

627

: 00:34:06

It's quite a common theme in trauma.

628

: 00:34:08

I've learned now that you sometimes

don't want to talk about the bad stuff

629

: 00:34:13

because you feel, I can remember I felt

like, I had this sort of black mist

630

: 00:34:17

and rather than feeling sharing helps,

I felt I need to keep all this black

631

: 00:34:21

mist inside because I could poison other

people and then they're never gonna be

632

: 00:34:25

quite as happy again, because I've put,

yeah, essentially tainted them somehow.

633

: 00:34:31

But then also with my friends, rightly so.

634

: 00:34:33

They were getting job promotions and

they're buying houses, you know, they

635

: 00:34:35

were late twenties by this point.

636

: 00:34:37

Some were getting married and having

babies and, which is brilliant.

637

: 00:34:40

Absolutely.

638

: 00:34:41

Absolutely they should and can and do

whatever they want to do with their

639

: 00:34:44

lives, but I was like half of myself.

640

: 00:34:48

I was a bit broken and I was back

living with my parents and I was

641

: 00:34:51

unemployed and I'd been a volunteer

for years, so I didn't have any money.

642

: 00:34:54

And the thing about going away for a

year, it's not great for your career

643

: 00:34:57

progress back here because you've become

somebody that's not quite reliable.

644

: 00:35:01

So you're not going to get your band

six if you're a band five nurse, because

645

: 00:35:03

they think you might go away again.

646

: 00:35:05

I hadn't expected it and I

hadn't left anything in reserve.

647

: 00:35:07

I'd given everything to my mission.

648

: 00:35:09

I was a year in South Sudan.

649

: 00:35:11

I gave her everything.

650

: 00:35:11

I didn't leave anything back.

651

: 00:35:13

And I came back, moved back in with my

boyfriend that I'd had before leaving.

652

: 00:35:17

We were just in different planets.

653

: 00:35:18

We were different worlds

away from each other.

654

: 00:35:20

Didn't know how to talk to him.

655

: 00:35:22

I thought "this is a really good idea.

656

: 00:35:23

I'm gonna go and get absolutely

annihilated with alcohol because

657

: 00:35:27

then surely these wonderful words

that I need to say are somehow

658

: 00:35:30

going to find their way out."

659

: 00:35:31

I mean, it doesn't work like that.

660

: 00:35:32

If anybody's planning a breakup that way,

it doesn't help you actually, if you need

661

: 00:35:37

to say something to somebody, you need to

sit them down, you just need to say it.

662

: 00:35:40

Don't go and do vodka chasers!

663

: 00:35:43

So anyway, so I ate a pizza on the

way home and I'd had this recurrent

664

: 00:35:48

diarrhea in South Sudan called Giardia,

which makes you lactose intolerant

665

: 00:35:52

so a late night pizza on top of

vodka, really, isn't a good idea.

666

: 00:35:56

VIKKI: Not a great idea.

667

: 00:35:56

ANNA KENT: A lot happened,

but essentially I wet the bed.

668

: 00:36:00

Woke up full of the shame of wetting

the bed and then I'd broken up

669

: 00:36:03

with him and then he'd left, and

then the next day he was gone.

670

: 00:36:06

And I just, I didn't, I panicked,

I didn't know what to do.

671

: 00:36:08

Like I had nothing left to give.

672

: 00:36:10

I was exhausted.

673

: 00:36:11

I'm completely like spinning out.

674

: 00:36:13

And so I got a hire car and I

packed everything up from my

675

: 00:36:16

flat and I left him a note.

676

: 00:36:18

And I got in the car.

677

: 00:36:19

I'm driving away like crying and being

like the worst person again with the

678

: 00:36:24

guilt, which is often related with trauma.

679

: 00:36:26

Like really internalising this,

"I should be better at this,

680

: 00:36:29

I should be bigger than this.

681

: 00:36:30

I should be able to cope with war and

breakups and be completely like, I

682

: 00:36:35

don't know, a better human about it".

683

: 00:36:37

I didn't heal at that

stage, if I'm honest.

684

: 00:36:40

I didn't understand what

the process would be.

685

: 00:36:42

But I got stronger and I got better and

I did my midwife training and I worked

686

: 00:36:45

really hard and I got a first and I

threw myself into the next big thing.

687

: 00:36:50

And then, yeah, then I went to Haiti

after the earthquake and cholera outbreak

688

: 00:36:53

and was kind of all disjointed again.

689

: 00:36:55

So I went back out for another

year with MSF to Bangladesh,

690

: 00:36:59

to a Rohingya refugee camp.

691

: 00:37:00

And at that point, there was 30,000

people in this haphazard refugee camp.

692

: 00:37:05

And we were the only medical

provision , no access to safe birth.

693

: 00:37:09

So I'd say probably one of the

proudest parts of my career, from

694

: 00:37:12

scratch we did build a birth unit

and stuff and that still runs today.

695

: 00:37:15

So the Rohingya women in the refugee

camp do have 24 hour access to

696

: 00:37:20

a trained midwife and safe birth.

697

: 00:37:22

So that good thing happened.

698

: 00:37:25

Um, yeah, I came back and

just, yeah, just broke.

699

: 00:37:31

VIKKI: God that responsibility

for, what was it, 30,000?

700

: 00:37:36

ANNA KENT: The population in

total was 30,000, so roughly

701

: 00:37:40

half of that would be female.

702

: 00:37:42

But a lot of the men were absent because

they tried to find work, which was illegal

703

: 00:37:47

for them because they were stateless.

704

: 00:37:48

So being stateless was, they'd

fled from Myanmar, from genocide

705

: 00:37:52

VIKKI: Yeah.

706

: 00:37:53

ANNA KENT: But Myanmar didn't recognise

them as their citizen, so they

707

: 00:37:56

didn't have a passport from Myanmar.

708

: 00:37:57

And then Bangladesh didn't recognise

them as citizens of Bangladesh,

709

: 00:37:59

so they ended up stateless.

710

: 00:38:00

So basically if you're stateless,

you don't belong to any country.

711

: 00:38:04

And that's why a lot of government,

you've got no rights, got no protection.

712

: 00:38:09

So again, with our maternity services,

I'd often be working with people who

713

: 00:38:13

had survived rape, you know, so we could

give the hepatitis vaccines, we could

714

: 00:38:17

give the emergency contraception and we

could give the, like prevented the P.E.P.

715

: 00:38:22

(post-event prophylaxis) to prevent H.I.V.

716

: 00:38:24

etc.

717

: 00:38:25

And I can sew up the grazes

and I can put a patch on that.

718

: 00:38:29

But unless you are curing the actual

core issue, which is the vulnerability

719

: 00:38:35

of the women in the camp, then we,

you know, we had to send, we had

720

: 00:38:40

to discharge them at some point.

721

: 00:38:41

I couldn't keep everybody.

722

: 00:38:43

And unless women have protection and legal

rights, then they're extremely vulnerable.

723

: 00:38:47

Absolutely.

724

: 00:38:49

And that was what I had no power over.

725

: 00:38:51

VIKKI: Yeah.

726

: 00:38:51

How do you come to terms with that?

727

: 00:38:53

Because that could destroy you.

728

: 00:38:56

ANNA KENT: So at the time I closed down.

729

: 00:38:59

I used to describe it that about

half my heart had turned to coal.

730

: 00:39:02

And I, I don't even know where

that analogy had come from.

731

: 00:39:05

That's how it felt for me.

732

: 00:39:06

So you reduce your field of vision

because you cannot function if you

733

: 00:39:13

are feeling every single pain and cut.

734

: 00:39:16

You just can't get up.

735

: 00:39:17

And then...

736

: 00:39:17

VIKKI: Yeah.

737

: 00:39:18

ANNA KENT: ...well, women did die.

738

: 00:39:20

You know, I could tear myself

apart for the rest of my life about

739

: 00:39:23

it, but if I didn't go into work

the next day, nobody did either.

740

: 00:39:26

So you feel less.

741

: 00:39:29

And I thought "I'm getting better at this.

742

: 00:39:31

I'm working more, I'm doing more,

I'm working harder, I know more now."

743

: 00:39:35

You know, I was a seasoned - oh

sounds so trite - but you know,

744

: 00:39:40

I was an experienced MSF worker.

745

: 00:39:42

I was a nurse and midwife, etc.

746

: 00:39:44

But what I had to learn the hard way

about trauma was I wasn't dealing with

747

: 00:39:50

it by any stretch of the imagination I

was dealing with it by partying harder.

748

: 00:39:55

I was having sex with people

that I probably shouldn't have.

749

: 00:39:57

I was distracting myself from

the physical pain of what I

750

: 00:40:02

was witnessing and burying

these .... This response to trauma.

751

: 00:40:08

You know, what was my trauma?

752

: 00:40:09

God, you know, this woman in

front of me has suffered more

753

: 00:40:12

trauma, a worse experience than I

can ever, ever, ever experience.

754

: 00:40:16

I'm the lucky one here.

755

: 00:40:17

So how on earth do I recognise

my suffering when that other

756

: 00:40:20

person is suffering a million,

billion, billion times worse?

757

: 00:40:24

But I came back from the Bangladesh

mission and and I was partying

758

: 00:40:28

harder and I'd ended up, like,

technically I was homeless, but

759

: 00:40:32

essentially I'm sofa surfing.

760

: 00:40:34

I'd fallen out of love with my midwifery

career because it was the NHS, for all

761

: 00:40:38

the problems that we know it, and ended

up basically having a hallucination.

762

: 00:40:43

So it technically, it's a flashback, but

my experience of it was a hallucination.

763

: 00:40:49

So I'd had a birth that

had gone pretty well.

764

: 00:40:51

I didn't have the birth,

the woman had had the...

765

: 00:40:53

sometimes I accidently say

I delivered and I didn't.

766

: 00:40:56

The woman always, woman and birthing

person is always the one to deliver.

767

: 00:41:00

So I'll catch myself with my, like,

you know, this paternalistic language

768

: 00:41:05

creeps in even if we don't want it to!

769

: 00:41:08

I'm trying to be aware of it.

770

: 00:41:09

So I had helped a brilliant woman

have her baby safely and everything

771

: 00:41:15

was fine and she'd had a little bit

of bleeding, which can be normal.

772

: 00:41:18

And I remember there was a

bit on her hand and it sort of

773

: 00:41:20

smeared a little bit on her leg.

774

: 00:41:21

And just something in my brain was

a bit like, and it was two in the

775

: 00:41:25

morning, and night shifts were always

horrid, and in that moment we'd had

776

: 00:41:31

a delivery in Bangladesh where to save

the life of the mum, we had to help a

777

: 00:41:37

baby that had already died delivering.

778

: 00:41:40

It was probably one of the worst

experiences that anybody could experience.

779

: 00:41:44

And in that moment then in

Nottingham, two years later, I

780

: 00:41:49

felt that I was back in Bangladesh.

781

: 00:41:51

I could smell the wood smoke from

the hovels in this refugee camp.

782

: 00:41:55

I could smell the latrines.

783

: 00:41:56

I could almost like hear the rain, like

pitter pattering off the veranda outside.

784

: 00:42:01

And it was, I don't know,

one second, two seconds.

785

: 00:42:04

I don't know how long it lasted.

786

: 00:42:05

It could have been a lifetime, it could

have been, you know, a blink of an eye.

787

: 00:42:08

I don't know how long it lasted.

788

: 00:42:09

Probably a second, probably two seconds.

789

: 00:42:11

But my world had...

790

: 00:42:13

for a moment, I could see what was in

front of me, but every other sense was

791

: 00:42:17

back in the refugee camp, a flashback.

792

: 00:42:20

And I was scared.

793

: 00:42:22

I was really scared because I didn't

know which way was up or down.

794

: 00:42:25

Everything in my life was a bit chaotic.

795

: 00:42:27

I was making some really poor choices.

796

: 00:42:29

But then to not even know what

was real or not, I just thought

797

: 00:42:32

I felt like I was gonna die.

798

: 00:42:34

Like I really thought, how much worse can

I possibly, possibly feel and survive.

799

: 00:42:43

But thankfully, thank God for James.

800

: 00:42:45

So James in his life had reached

a point where he nearly died.

801

: 00:42:49

And actually his switch was flicked

and then he became a Buddhist and Zen

802

: 00:42:54

and this brilliant person he is today.

803

: 00:42:56

And thank God I knew of his

experience, because I think some

804

: 00:43:00

like animalistic part of me was

like, I cannot feel worse than this.

805

: 00:43:04

Like this, this can't be how life is now.

806

: 00:43:07

So I went to my GP who told me

I was far too young and far too

807

: 00:43:10

healthy looking to have P.T.S.D.

808

: 00:43:11

(Post Traumatic Stress

Disorder), which clearly I did.

809

: 00:43:13

VIKKI: Can I just call

absolute bullshit on that!

810

: 00:43:15

ANNA KENT: Yeah, absolutely!

811

: 00:43:17

Like...

812

: 00:43:17

it sounds a little bit like a humble

brag, but when I'm unwell I can still

813

: 00:43:21

look quite well, which I know sounds

really like egotistical, but I can say the

814

: 00:43:27

right things, I can do the right things.

815

: 00:43:28

I can still remember birthdays,

I can still function really

816

: 00:43:32

integrated into society and be

really, really quite unwell.

817

: 00:43:36

And it took a really brilliant therapist.

818

: 00:43:39

So I then took time off work.

819

: 00:43:41

He signed me off with stress, which

I guess it was, I was stressed.

820

: 00:43:45

That wasn't the core.

821

: 00:43:46

Wanted to put me on antidepressants.

822

: 00:43:48

And I said, "I don't want antidepressants

because I don't feel depressed."

823

: 00:43:50

Looking back, anxiety - and we'll

talk more hopefully about postnatal

824

: 00:43:55

anxiety over postnatal depression

as well - because I think I've

825

: 00:43:58

always been prone to anxiety.

826

: 00:43:59

I think it's like, even like my

social awareness as a child who's five

827

: 00:44:03

with Live Aid, I think actually was

probably quite anxiety triggering?

828

: 00:44:07

Like in hindsight.

829

: 00:44:10

So I took time off work, moved

into a Buddhist center in Sherwood,

830

: 00:44:13

Akshobya, just outside Nottingham.

831

: 00:44:15

And it was brilliant because I, I always

thought nuns and monks were some sort

832

: 00:44:18

of like superhuman, but actually they're

human who have this really brilliant

833

: 00:44:22

structure for dealing with all their human

weaknesses and fallibilities, who knew?

834

: 00:44:27

They're not martyrs either!

835

: 00:44:28

And I loved living there because I was

really struggling, but I found support.

836

: 00:44:31

So I stopped drinking.

837

: 00:44:32

I stopped smoking and stopped

the partying, which wasn't

838

: 00:44:36

bringing me happiness.

839

: 00:44:36

I thought it was my happiness.

840

: 00:44:37

It really wasn't.

841

: 00:44:38

VIKKI: Do you think it

was a coping mechanism?

842

: 00:44:41

ANNA KENT: I think it was

just a form of distraction.

843

: 00:44:43

I think we kid ourselves that one night

stands and partying hard is really fun.

844

: 00:44:48

Like that's the lie you sell

yourself in your twenties.

845

: 00:44:51

That really, when you get to

the end of your thirties, you're

846

: 00:44:53

like, "God, it's all fake!"

847

: 00:44:55

You know, it's like my drunk self is a

fun person to be around, but it's not me.

848

: 00:45:01

It's not my innate person.

849

: 00:45:03

It's, I'm pretending as James would always

say about like partying hard, is basically

850

: 00:45:07

"you're stealing tomorrow's happiness".

851

: 00:45:09

It's not sustainable, right.

852

: 00:45:10

It's not real.

853

: 00:45:11

VIKKI: Didn't your family as well

worry that you were sort of being

854

: 00:45:14

sucked into a cult by living in a...

855

: 00:45:17

ANNA KENT: Yeah.

856

: 00:45:17

I think it's all, it's about

what's tangible, isn't it?

857

: 00:45:20

So me flying into a war zone, because

it's so unimaginable, I think probably

858

: 00:45:24

didn't cause as much like aware....

859

: 00:45:27

I'm not saying they weren't worried,

but I think it's the unimaginable.

860

: 00:45:32

And I then would, you know, from the

war zone, or conflict zone, to be

861

: 00:45:35

accurate , I would then write these

really like peppy "Yep, I'm fine.

862

: 00:45:40

Here's a funny story about James.

863

: 00:45:41

Oh, I've seen a snake.

864

: 00:45:42

See you soon!"

865

: 00:45:43

Rather than, actually, "I think

my personality is fractured into

866

: 00:45:46

several pieces and I'm not sure

if I'm ever going to sleep again".

867

: 00:45:49

People You know that that's not

fair to send them that when they

868

: 00:45:53

can do absolutely nothing to help.

869

: 00:45:55

It's cruel to in some

ways, and yes it's true.

870

: 00:45:59

But again, one of the things for reading

the book is like, I feel like I can

871

: 00:46:01

tell now the whole full circle of it.

872

: 00:46:04

And so I'm not leaving people with harm.

873

: 00:46:07

I hope it would come full circle.

874

: 00:46:09

Yeah, I moved into the Buddhist

Centre and met a couple of therapists.

875

: 00:46:14

I don't think I put that in the book.

876

: 00:46:15

So one of the things I learned about

therapy, I used to hate the word.

877

: 00:46:18

It seemed so self-indulgent, "God,

I'm gonna go and speak to my therapist

878

: 00:46:22

of all these difficult things!"

879

: 00:46:23

Like I didn't even like

the language of therapy.

880

: 00:46:25

I felt a real aversion to it.

881

: 00:46:27

And I went to a couple of therapists

and one, she was a brilliant woman,

882

: 00:46:30

but when I told her a brief story of...

883

: 00:46:34

I was getting really intrusive dreams

that were so real, I would wake

884

: 00:46:39

so sweaty and it was birth stories

where I felt I'd failed over and over

885

: 00:46:43

and over and over and over again.

886

: 00:46:46

And one of the women that I'd met

with in therapy had basically burst

887

: 00:46:49

into tears at the first discussion.

888

: 00:46:51

And I thought, "I can't.

889

: 00:46:52

I can't share this black air that I felt,

this poison that I felt I was carrying

890

: 00:46:57

because I feel I'm gonna harm you".

891

: 00:47:00

So it's important to learn.

892

: 00:47:01

You don't have to stick with the

first therapist that you are given.

893

: 00:47:04

You can shop around essentially.

894

: 00:47:07

And the woman I really

connected with was older.

895

: 00:47:10

She was really stern.

896

: 00:47:11

She'd had a lived experience of family

who had been incarcerated at Auschwitz

897

: 00:47:16

and she specialised in complex P.T.S.D.

898

: 00:47:20

in military.

899

: 00:47:22

And the freedom that that gave to me is

that I felt that she wouldn't be harmed.

900

: 00:47:26

Because like, you cannot open

up to somebody fully if you

901

: 00:47:29

feel they will be harmed.

902

: 00:47:30

Because we care about other people.

903

: 00:47:33

We don't want to cause harm, right?

904

: 00:47:35

None of us want to.

905

: 00:47:36

One of the reasons we've got the trigger

warning at the front of the book, you

906

: 00:47:39

know, this book isn't for everybody,

but it it is true and it is real.

907

: 00:47:43

So if people feel they want

to read that book, brilliant.

908

: 00:47:46

But you know, it has to

be on their own terms.

909

: 00:47:49

And I can remember in one of them, I

was going over and over again, "this

910

: 00:47:52

dream, this dream, this dream.".

911

: 00:47:53

So she'd said, "try and write it

down, because that can disempower it".

912

: 00:47:56

And actually it was, it was like three

lines this, this dream, these dreams.

913

: 00:48:02

And it was always about

the patient that I'd lost.

914

: 00:48:03

You know, a thousand patients

would come to us a month and I'd

915

: 00:48:06

remember the one that died, you know.

916

: 00:48:08

And I couldn't remember, I can't

remember any of the names of the

917

: 00:48:10

patients, but I can, but I can

remember every single breath sound.

918

: 00:48:14

I can remember the name of all their kids.

919

: 00:48:15

I can remember which village they were in.

920

: 00:48:17

You know, that's again,

a symptom of trauma.

921

: 00:48:19

Like that micro memory of every

single turn of the seconds.

922

: 00:48:25

I mean, I, I won't go down

that rabbit hole, Anna.

923

: 00:48:29

Let's hold our inner selves

and pull ourselves back out!"

924

: 00:48:34

So she used to say, "I'm not

gonna indulge that, Anna."

925

: 00:48:37

And to begin with, I took offence at

that's like, "this isn't indulgent!

926

: 00:48:39

This isn't like gelato with chocolate

sauce or nuts, that's indulgent, surely!"

927

: 00:48:45

But she would hold me to

account with why that was still.

928

: 00:48:51

And one of the themes that she managed

to draw out from me was that I expected

929

: 00:48:55

- this is gonna sound ridiculous now

930

: 00:48:57

-

so in a refugee camp of 30,000 people, who had no access to

931

: 00:49:00

healthcare, I expected that I could

save every single life in there.

932

: 00:49:04

VIKKI: Wow.

933

: 00:49:05

ANNA KENT: Which of course nobody could.

934

: 00:49:08

But I'd never thought of it from that way.

935

: 00:49:10

I had to allow myself to be

human and fallible and fail.

936

: 00:49:14

And none of us want to fail.

937

: 00:49:15

And I had to learn that I did fail.

938

: 00:49:19

And actually that was also okay.

939

: 00:49:22

And that, can we go back,

that my intentions were good.

940

: 00:49:25

I didn't always succeed.

941

: 00:49:27

And I had to really forgive myself.

942

: 00:49:29

Because one of the other things I talk

about in the book, um, sorry, it sounds

943

: 00:49:33

like that was a dreadful plug for a book

that I, I didn't mean it in that way!

944

: 00:49:38

But I talk about moral injury

as well, which I'd never heard

945

: 00:49:40

of till I was doing research.

946

: 00:49:42

VIKKI: Was quite an epiphany

for you, discovering it?

947

: 00:49:44

ANNA KENT: Massive epiphany, yeah.

948

: 00:49:46

Moral injury.

949

: 00:49:46

So - I am not claiming to be a

pychotherapist, but what I, understood

950

: 00:49:50

it to be is that you - often through

work - that you have been forced

951

: 00:49:54

to overstep your moral boundaries.

952

: 00:49:58

And there can be a sense of fracturing

of your sense of self because you

953

: 00:50:02

have broken your own moral code.

954

: 00:50:04

So for me, my requisite for going

to South Sudan, Haiti, Bangladesh,

955

: 00:50:10

wherever was that "I am here

to save lives" and I couldn't.

956

: 00:50:14

So I've broken my own commitment

for why I'm there anyway, for

957

: 00:50:18

these lives that I've not saved.

958

: 00:50:19

But not only that, I have then been

around to witness what happens when you

959

: 00:50:25

can't save the life and bear witness

to the grieving families and lend that

960

: 00:50:29

guy a spade so he can bury his kid.

961

: 00:50:31

You know?

962

: 00:50:32

So not only are we breaking our own

moral code, but also we very much see,

963

: 00:50:36

feel, hear, sense the outer negative

impacts that trauma that just grows

964

: 00:50:42

and grows and grows and grows and grows.

965

: 00:50:45

So with what I felt from moral injury

with me, this sense of being poisonous,

966

: 00:50:49

the sense of this black, black gas.

967

: 00:50:52

I didn't realise I felt it until I was

feeling healthy and could look back at it.

968

: 00:50:57

But that's, that's how it felt to me.

969

: 00:50:58

Like this poison gas that could poison

other people, but also a deep sense of

970

: 00:51:04

shame, like a really deep sense of shame.

971

: 00:51:07

Like "I am probably the worst person

in the whole world", which is a little

972

: 00:51:11

bit around the ego as well, which

Buddhism has helped me to learn with.

973

: 00:51:14

Because our ego is that we only

see from our own sense of self.

974

: 00:51:19

So even if we're piling on again

- Buddhists out there, stop me if I'm wrong.

975

: 00:51:22

I don't claim to be Buddhist - my

understanding being that even if

976

: 00:51:26

you are seeing the world from, "I

am really dreadful", the world is

977

: 00:51:29

still the ego, this sense of self.

978

: 00:51:31

Whether that's good or bad is still

a celebration of that we're still

979

: 00:51:35

like completely committed to the ego.

980

: 00:51:36

But so I felt probably, yeah,

some form of complex P.T.S.D.

981

: 00:51:41

with some form of moral injury.

982

: 00:51:42

And like my way of healing from moral

injury, so writing has really helped me.

983

: 00:51:49

It gave me an opportunity

to forgive myself.

984

: 00:51:52

Because it is so obvious, now

it's down on paper, that my

985

: 00:51:56

expectations were completely off.

986

: 00:51:58

And the reality was I can

celebrate more our successes.

987

: 00:52:03

I feel I've given some ceremony to

the people that we couldn't save.

988

: 00:52:06

So I feel that bearing witness, you still

have a sense of duty within that because

989

: 00:52:10

"temoignage" like the core philosophy of

MSF to bear witness, but also speak out.

990

: 00:52:14

So I feel I've still tried my

humanest to give them some space

991

: 00:52:20

and some respect and some dignity.

992

: 00:52:23

And yeah, forgiving myself,

that's what it all comes down to.

993

: 00:52:27

And it's a daily, like with mindfulness,

with meditation, it's a daily practice.

994

: 00:52:32

And by stopping the partying and the

one night stands, what that actually was

995

: 00:52:36

doing was each time it was giving me a new

thing to feel dreadful and guilty about.

996

: 00:52:41

So by reducing the chaos in the world

and the new things that you're having

997

: 00:52:45

to pick up the pieces of every time,

but like by trying - with a lively

998

: 00:52:51

five year old - trying to have a

calmer existence, trying to be mindful

999

: 00:52:54

and give thanks and gratitude and

understand that we do all fail, you know?

: 1000

00:53:01,277 --> 00:53:05,096

We do all have a variety of mental

health problems you know, and, so for

: 1001

00:53:05,096 --> 00:53:10,946

me it was, what has helped me is a

really structured, strict therapist.

: 1002

00:53:11,106 --> 00:53:11,456

With the C.B.T.

: 1003

00:53:11,456 --> 00:53:13,353

(Cognitive Behavioural Therapy)

I found I connect with C.B.T.

: 1004

00:53:13,373 --> 00:53:15,403

because it, it gave us structure and

it gave us something to work with.

: 1005

00:53:15,463 --> 00:53:19,033

I know other people have benefitted with

person-centered therapy after trauma.

: 1006

00:53:19,783 --> 00:53:24,943

So again, yeah, shop around I guess would

be my advice, but also just really looking

: 1007

00:53:24,943 --> 00:53:27,243

at like, how we speak to ourselves.

: 1008

00:53:27,573 --> 00:53:31,466

I've never even realised it, but until

the like the meditation side, I don't find

: 1009

00:53:31,466 --> 00:53:35,666

chanting or 'OM'ing connects with me, but

I try and sit calmly and just body scan.

: 1010

00:53:36,086 --> 00:53:40,316

But it really helps me recognise what

my inner voice is talking to me like.

: 1011

00:53:40,316 --> 00:53:44,306

I would never say to other people

what my inner voice says to me.

: 1012

00:53:44,933 --> 00:53:48,018

Of all the bad book reviews and stuff,

part of me is like, "you can't say

: 1013

00:53:48,018 --> 00:53:49,538

anything worse than what I say to myself."

: 1014

00:53:49,648 --> 00:53:50,108

Honestly!"

: 1015

00:53:51,937 --> 00:53:52,267

VIKKI: Yeah.

: 1016

00:53:52,657 --> 00:53:53,887

Your own inner critic.

: 1017

00:53:54,617 --> 00:53:59,650

I just recently completed training

in children's children's yoga and our

: 1018

00:53:59,650 --> 00:54:02,956

yoga teacher - I'll give a shout out

to her because she's just fabulous,

: 1019

00:54:02,956 --> 00:54:07,663

Ayala Homassany - and she has a

brilliant approach to that, sort of

: 1020

00:54:07,693 --> 00:54:12,203

inner critic because she was like,

"I'm gonna sit them down there and

: 1021

00:54:12,203 --> 00:54:14,243

like build them a little golden stool.

: 1022

00:54:14,248 --> 00:54:15,863

You can cover it in glitter, whatever.

: 1023

00:54:16,223 --> 00:54:19,583

But whenever they come a calling,

you know, sit on my little stool.

: 1024

00:54:19,833 --> 00:54:20,973

You are too loud.

: 1025

00:54:20,973 --> 00:54:22,233

Just be quiet over there.

: 1026

00:54:22,623 --> 00:54:26,590

You know, I'm acknowledging you, but

just sit on your stool and be quiet".

: 1027

00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:28,843

And, I mean, gosh, you're so right.

: 1028

00:54:29,063 --> 00:54:35,013

And for me, having learnt about

your story, the fact that you keep

: 1029

00:54:35,013 --> 00:54:39,733

beating yourself up, when you've done

so much to help so many people...

: 1030

00:54:39,738 --> 00:54:42,213

I just find that incredible.

: 1031

00:54:42,623 --> 00:54:46,161

ANNA KENT: What's quite interesting

about parenting is because now

: 1032

00:54:46,161 --> 00:54:47,541

I get this amazing experience.

: 1033

00:54:47,541 --> 00:54:48,801

Like my daughter's five.

: 1034

00:54:49,221 --> 00:54:50,506

I can't remember what it was even about.

: 1035

00:54:50,836 --> 00:54:52,883

She was tired, she felt the rage.

: 1036

00:54:52,883 --> 00:54:55,013

I don't even know what it was about,

but she was literally fizzing.

: 1037

00:54:55,073 --> 00:55:00,953

Like she was so angry about this, what

I felt was quite a mediocre thing.

: 1038

00:55:02,363 --> 00:55:05,633

And I just thought, "ah, we

often don't talk about anger."

: 1039

00:55:05,633 --> 00:55:09,143

Like anger is still a taboo

societally, sometimes.

: 1040

00:55:09,793 --> 00:55:10,433

VIKKI: Especially for girls.

: 1041

00:55:11,533 --> 00:55:12,083

ANNA KENT: Especially for girls.

: 1042

00:55:12,433 --> 00:55:12,983

And anger.

: 1043

00:55:13,493 --> 00:55:14,753

Actually anger can save your life.

: 1044

00:55:14,873 --> 00:55:16,283

There are things we should be angry about.

: 1045

00:55:16,283 --> 00:55:20,183

If somebody is putting your life in

danger, if somebody's marginalising you,

: 1046

00:55:20,813 --> 00:55:24,563

if somebody is putting you in harm's

way, we should be angry about that.

: 1047

00:55:24,713 --> 00:55:27,453

There is still mindfulness , within

anger, I believe so, you know,

: 1048

00:55:27,633 --> 00:55:30,213

just bouncing off the walls,

that isn't gonna help everybody.

: 1049

00:55:30,573 --> 00:55:35,703

But if we can take this important emotion

of anger, this fire, this fury, which is

: 1050

00:55:35,708 --> 00:55:41,973

so bloody important that we don't lose,

but use it in a way that is gonna help us.

: 1051

00:55:42,333 --> 00:55:45,196

Then, you know, we

get the benefits of it.

: 1052

00:55:45,616 --> 00:55:48,141

So I sat next to her and I

said, "I'll sit here and I will

: 1053

00:55:48,141 --> 00:55:50,961

sit with you through this moment

for as long as you need me to."

: 1054

00:55:50,961 --> 00:55:53,691

I said, "I know you feel dreadful

and I know you feel horrid.

: 1055

00:55:54,411 --> 00:55:56,241

This feeling that you've got is anger.

: 1056

00:55:56,871 --> 00:55:59,601

So what we're gonna do, we're

gonna wait for the fizz to go".

: 1057

00:55:59,841 --> 00:56:03,321

I know it wasn't as scripted

as it's coming out right now!

: 1058

00:56:03,591 --> 00:56:06,531

I was just like, "well, we're gonna wait

for the fizz to go and whatever it is

: 1059

00:56:06,531 --> 00:56:09,681

that is the problem, we're gonna sort it

out and we're gonna sort it out together.

: 1060

00:56:09,681 --> 00:56:13,076

So let's just sit, let's just that

feeling, that horrible feeling that

: 1061

00:56:13,076 --> 00:56:16,101

you don't know what to do with it

is gonna come and then let's just

: 1062

00:56:16,101 --> 00:56:17,251

take it step by step from there."

: 1063

00:56:17,281 --> 00:56:21,261

And I almost felt like this higher self

was like my inner child that is still

: 1064

00:56:21,291 --> 00:56:22,881

really angry about a lot of stuff.

: 1065

00:56:23,471 --> 00:56:26,451

I thought that was like this little

hug to my own inner child as well.

: 1066

00:56:26,451 --> 00:56:29,121

So it like, it can be

fascinating parenting that

: 1067

00:56:29,126 --> 00:56:31,971

way, I was like, "ah, this!"

: 1068

00:56:32,211 --> 00:56:34,911

Like even complex things

like body autonomy.

: 1069

00:56:35,151 --> 00:56:38,121

Somebody can't touch you if they don't

want you to like actually, when you

: 1070

00:56:38,331 --> 00:56:43,251

step through it step by step with a five

year old, it actually makes so much then

: 1071

00:56:43,256 --> 00:56:45,141

more sense to my inner self as well.

: 1072

00:56:45,141 --> 00:56:48,621

So I'm, yeah, I'm grateful

I've had a chance to learn

: 1073

00:56:48,626 --> 00:56:54,361

all this big self-awareness

stuff through mindfulness, etc.

: 1074

00:56:55,105 --> 00:56:57,521

VIKKI: Oh, that's, neatly

wrapped up episode one.

: 1075

00:56:57,551 --> 00:56:59,261

Thank you so much for joining me.

: 1076

00:56:59,266 --> 00:57:03,544

And, in episode two, in the

follow on, we will talk about

: 1077

00:57:03,614 --> 00:57:05,281

your experience of motherhood.

: 1078

00:57:05,741 --> 00:57:07,861

So thank you so much Anna.

: 1079

00:57:08,231 --> 00:57:10,301

Welcome, thanks so much for having me!

: 1080

00:57:10,521 --> 00:57:11,151

Thank you.

: 1081

00:57:11,851 --> 00:57:15,601

The theme music is 'Sunrise

Expedition' by Joseph MacDade.

: 1082

00:57:15,890 --> 00:57:19,370

New episodes are released the first

Monday of each month, available

: 1083

00:57:19,380 --> 00:57:21,520

on all major podcast platforms.

: 1084

00:57:22,087 --> 00:57:26,687

Hit follow to keep up with all the latest,

and if you enjoy Blue MumDays, please

: 1085

00:57:26,687 --> 00:57:28,807

leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.

: 1086

00:57:29,107 --> 00:57:30,967

It helps more people to find us.

: 1087

00:57:31,344 --> 00:57:32,584

Thank you so much.