Episode 25
I Was Called 'Aggressive' During My Labour: SANDRA IGWE of The Motherhood Group
Our Christmas/New Year episode is with the hugely inspiring Sandra Igwe - maternal health advocate, TEDx speaker and founder of The Motherhood Group. Sandra talked to me in Spring 2022 about her work raising awareness of the disparities of black women's maternal mental health outcomes and issues. She also bravely shares her own personal experience of birth trauma and racism and the profound affect this has had on navigating motherhood.
Despite the heavy subject matter, I found this a joyous conversation and once again - like so many of my guests - Sandra has turned a hugely traumatic experience into something so positive, helping educate health professionals and offering support to other mums.
*TRIGGER WARNING: *Birth Trauma and Racial Discrimination*
IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:
[00:00] Teaser quote.
[01:52] Introduction to Sandra.
[03:26] Writing her latest book based on her experience, 'My Black Motherhood'.
[05:37] Life before becoming a mum and the transition into motherhood.
[09:52] Sandra's first pregnancy - a beautiful surprise!
[13:49] Worries about not being a 'good' mum during pregnancy.
[16:04] Zoe's birth - dismissive, racist treatment and lack of adequate care/choice.
[21:15] Similar situation with her second daughter's birth - more trauma.
[25:05] Aftercare - or lack of it! The need for healthcare professionals to be better trained, especially on cultural competence.
[30:12] How this birth trauma impacted on Sandra's mental health.
[33:30] Cultural stigma and shame regarding perinatal mental health.
[35:17] Finding her tribe and finding her voice - starting The Motherhood Group.
[44:53] Recovery, including support from her partner.
[50:30] Finding your groove.
[52:24] Sandra's faith.
[54:48] Advice for people currently struggling.
[58:53] Free support available via The Motherhood Group.
KEY TAKEAWAYS:
- Sandra's organisation The Motherhood Group raises awareness of black maternal health issues and offers peer-to-peer support, free doula support and free counselling for issues like anxiety, PND and stress.
- Black Maternal Health Week highlights the disparity of black mums' maternal mental health outcomes and issues. It occurs 11-17 April and this year's theme is: "Our Bodies Belong to Us: Restoring Black Autonomy and Joy!' (#BMHW23).
- Sandra's latest book 'My Black Motherhood: Mental Health, Stigma, Racism & The System' is available in all good book stores. You can purchase it here.
- Feeling emotionally invalidated during your labour is highly traumatising.
- If you can, have someone at your birth who can advocate for you while you are in a vulnerable position.
- The MBBRACE-UK Report 2020 into maternal deaths showed that black mums in the UK have 4x the risk of dying in pregnancy in comparison to a white woman.
- Black and minority mums are more like to have or develop mental health problems during the perinatal period and are less likely to get help.
- Black Mamas Matter Alliance
- Make Birth Better (Birth Trauma Support)
- You can listen to our special episode on Birth Trauma with Dr Becca Moore of Make Birth Better here.
- Talking therapy is so important - finding and opening up with other women and parents who are going through similar experiences to you.
- Sandra Igwe's website for more on Sandra and her work.
- Listen to our special episodes on Self Compassion Part 1 and Self Compassion Part 2 with Poonam Dhuffer of YSM8.
- The 15 minute Loving Kindness Meditation will help you relax, reset and recharge any time you need it. You don't need to meditate - just close your eyes and listen to Poonam's words.
- Don't compare yourself to people's social media feeds - it's not a true reflection of what's really going on for them.
Early intervention is hugely important in terms of getting help. The earlier you seek support, the better in terms of your recovery.If you enjoyed this episode, please share, rate and subscribe. It really does make the difference in helping others find it – which means helping more parents in need.
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Email: bluemumdays@gmail.com
NEXT EPISODE:
Next time I speak to another incredible lady, Charlie Beswick of facial disfigurement and visible difference charity 'More Than A Face'. Charlie is mum to twins Oliver and Harry - Harry was born with a rare craniofacial condition and is also autistic. Her experience led to her writing her best-selling book 'Our Altered Life', a brutally honest account of how she came to terms with a life she never expected and often resented. It is a brave and beautiful conversation.
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I remember the nurse getting frustrated and quite angry with me saying that I'm kind of like screaming and I'm crying and I, I shouldn't be in pain because my contractions aren't happening yet. She basically was getting frustrated at my distress, and then I had to kind of like hold my cries in and hold my pain in. Now, I know in hindsight that black women, unfortunately, we do have to silence ourselves. And that's why we are very reluctant to raise our concerns because when we do, we're told that we're exaggerating. We're told that we're being too loud and too passionate or too aggressive sometimes. I was called aggressive during my labour! Being told off, when you are in excruciating pain, you feel extremely helpless. I looked at my husband to beg him to like advocate on my behalf and poor him, he tried his best you know. That bond that I thought would happen immediately didn't happen because of just thinking "What happened? What did I just experience in the last 24 hours? Why did they treat me this way?" Definitely I think it had so much to do with my depression afterwards, like going through that traumatic birthing experience. Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life. But for many mums and dads, it can be the hardest and at times the darkest of places. Welcome to Season 2 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone struggling with parenting. All the stories shared here are from the heart. These are real conversations and may be triggering, so please listen with discretion. Today's episode covers birth trauma. We will also signpost you to help in the show notes. Thank you. This episode was recorded during the spring of 2022. Today's guest is Sandra Igwe, maternal health advocate, TEDx speaker and founder of the Motherhood Group. They are a social enterprise delivering workshops and large scale events interacting with thousands of black mothers. The Motherhood Group raises awareness of black maternal issues, reduces the stigma of mental challenges within the community, provides peer-to-peer support, free doula support and free counselling. Sandra's work through the Motherhood Group has helped mothers tackle anxiety, postnatal depression, and stress. On top of that, the group delivers national campaigns, collaborating with decision makers to influence policy and pioneering Black Maternal Health Week, the UK's first ever Awareness week, highlighting the disparities of black women's maternal mental health outcomes and issues. Sandra is also a children's book author, inclusion consultant, content creator and co-chair of the National Inquiry Into Racial Injustice in Maternity Care. Through digital training workshops, she ensures black mother's voices are amplified, recognised and accurately represented. And she's a mother of two. Oh my God, wow- that's some bio. Sandra! How on earth do you do it all? Um, wow. When you read it out does sound extremely a lot. But I mainly just say I'm a mum with a voice and I use my voice to advocate for myself and other women just like me. In short! And am I right in thinking you've got a new book just coming out as well? Yeah, so that bio is a little bit old because, um, as of recent we've got a new book. Well, I've got a new book coming out called 'My Black Motherhood: Mental Health Stigma, Racism and the System'. And it will officially be out in June, but you can pre-order now. Um, and it's basically my experience of being pregnant, my labor experience, my postnatal experience, and also perinatal mental health challenges that were undiagnosed. And of course, I have other mothers that share their experiences and their journey of motherhood as well. Oh wow. That's just giving me the tingles, just thinking about that. So yeah, that sounds like such an incredibly important book to have written. And uh, was it a good experience writing that for you? Um, I would say it's one, or it was, um, and has been one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. Um, so there were lots of tears as I was writing. Um, it's taken two years to finally complete it. It was very difficult, but it's funny how you can say the same story over and over again for, for five years, six years, but it still doesn't really change, you know, the emotions behind it. So it was very difficult, but very rewarding as well. And I would say almost therapeutic, kind of having to, um, you know, go through the motions and understand in hindsight now what actually happened, um, to me, because I often say that sometimes in the moment it's difficult to actually process all of the thoughts and feelings and the situation at hand. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think, yeah, it sounds like quite a cathartic experience, but not necessarily an easy one for, for all of those reasons. And it is so important we share our stories because these things aren't talked about enough. And you know, the more we share our stories and our lived experience, the more we can help normalise the conversation around perinatal mental health and also help other mums and dads feel less alone. And I'm a huge admirer of the work, all the work you've been doing in the Motherhood Group to amplify the black maternal experience in particular. So yeah- what were you like as a person or how was life for you before you became a mum? Wow, that seems like such a distant memory. Um, but before I became a mum actually, if I'm being quite honest with you, even though I always knew I would be a mum I never actually imagined how I would become a mum when I would become a mum and it wasn't necessarily part of my, um, you know, five, even 10 year strategy. So my kids were both beautiful surprises, both of them. Um, but before, before motherhood, I was, um, living life in a way that satisfied my every need. I think it's okay to be selfish, and I could say that I was a, a selfish person in a sense that I put myself first all the time in every single way that I, I could. And, um, that was for me, the biggest shock transitioning into motherhood is that my needs, my, um, primary initial needs- of course they are being met and they had to be met. But I had somebody else to put first, to put forward, to take care of, somebody that was relying on my every single need. That still does rely on my every single, um, need to eat, to sleep, kind of to sleep as far, um, to to, you know, to, to just go on their day-to-day basis. On their day-to-day lives. They rely on their mother. So for me, that was a massive shock. But, um, how was I, I'm trying to think. How was I, it's really hard to articulate how I was before becoming a mum because I do feel like part of me has -the old me- has kind of come back. But part of me will never come back because it's you, you do go through changes as a mum physically, emotionally, mentally, and some of that, you know, will be permanent changes, in my opinion. Um, but I definitely lived life on the edge. I was definitely spontaneous, very outgoing, very sociable, adventurous. Um, it was strange. I, I had no fears prior becoming a mum I felt fearless. And now, I mean, I'm, I'm scared of most things, now. I'm anxious about lots of things, things that I did with ease. I traveled alone to crazy places for long periods of time by myself, I would never do that now. Um, so yeah, life was definitely very different. Wow. You know, that thing of that change, I mean a) the transition as you say, when suddenly, literally within a minute you go from being an individual to somebody responsible for another's life, which is a huge transition. You know, it's, it's life changing in so many ways. But also that feeling about when you do become a parent, and I think especially birth mothers, where we're sort of hotwired to respond to our babies cry. And also, I don't know about you, but I found any baby crying or any child crying, I am just literally, it, it sends shockwaves through me. And you know, gosh, I even remember like walking through the park, uh, when I was breastfeeding and my boobs would just go off I'd have like let down if I heard another baby cry, which is something nobody ever tells you about, but it's very, very normal. The other thing, of course, when you become a parent and you know, this isn't just exclusively the, the birth mums, but for any parent, there seems to be a heightened sensitivity to everything like emotionally. I certainly found when I had Stanley, it was a bit like the moment when Dorothy steps out into Oz and it goes from black and white into full technicolour, and so that the beautiful things in the world became much more beautiful, but the awful challenging things in the world - and we're speaking now while the war is happening in Ukraine and it's just a desperate situation out there. My heart goes out to anybody affected. But yeah, all the horrible things in the world become extra awful. So yeah, I think your experience hugely resonates. If we can sort of turn back the dial. So you were saying, you know, both your daughters were beautiful surprises. How did you feel when you found out you were pregnant with your first daughter? Wow. Um, I remember feeling quite nauseous, quite sick, um, and not really knowing where this sickness was coming from . And then it dawned on me, I, I might be pregnant and I've never really had thoughts about or like scares in the past to be fair. Um, and then I remember doing the test and shock. It was , if I can articulate what I'm trying to say. It was absolutely the most overwhelming feeling of "can I do this? Am I actually, is this really real?" To the point where I took more than one, maybe two or three, maybe even four pregnancy tests. It was quite a bit just to reconfirm my thoughts. And then I thought, "but Sandra, you're not maternal, you can't really be a mum. Like how are you going to do this?" And then I remember speaking to my partner and he said "no, we're gonna be fine and you'll be fine. Of course you'll be a good mum." And that was my fear, was "will I be able to be a good mum if I am really and truly pregnant?" Um, and that was my, my, you know, initial fears. And then the moment that I kind of got over that hurdle of "will I be able to be a good mum and actually, I can, I can do this." Then the emotions change from being very, very afraid, very scared to embracing it, embracing every single moment. I felt like people could tell I was pregnant even though I had no bump whatsoever. I almost started walking as if I had already given birth. And, um, somebody that I'd never met before said to me "oh my gosh, you remind me of a mum" and that comment- it sticks to me till this day. And so I felt like this was, um, meant to happen. Another strange thing is that, um, before I, maybe when I was about six months pregnant and I think we found out that we were gonna have a girl and we were looking at names as early on as possible, the name Zoe, I don't know how and why, it really just resonated with me, even though I had never planned to name any of my kids, my future kids, Zoe. I had always thought of other different types of names, but Zoe, um, stuck out to me and I was like, "I want us to go with Zoe." And my husband was a bit unsure. Um, and then the day she was born, she was born on the third of March, 2016. And I remember when the nurse was like, wrote down the date and I thought, hold on, oh 3 0 3 16. Those, those numbers look familiar. And in the hospital bed there happened to be a really tiny Bible on the table. Um, I am a Christian, but at the time, I, I wasn't really like really strong in my faith, but I definitely believed. And then I flipped to John 316 and Zoe's name was there, Everlasting Life, her name means 'everlasting life.' Oh wow, that's beautiful! And at that moment I burst into tears. Cause for me that was confirmation that this was meant to be. And I think so many of us, you know, birthing people, women, mothers, we try our best to plan everything to a tee. And if you're like me, I'm, I'm a serial planner. I've got a five year strategy that I've got listed down and I need to hit those milestones. So for me, I say it's a beautiful surprise cause it literally was a surprise. But her birth changed the trajectory of my life, like forever. I can't say it was a smooth sailing journey. It's been a rollercoaster of a ride. But every single moment and every single point of my pregnancy, my birthing experience, and my motherhood journey, I feel like it's meant to be. And that's what kind of keeps me going and keeps me in awe of just being a mum, yeah. Wow, it sounds like it's been an incredible awakening for you, but what were your fears then about not being a 'good' mum? Was it because of how you put yourself first prior to becoming a mum or was it other concerns? I think, you know, you have those friends who are always hanging around with, um, or babysitting their nieces and their nephews or just being, just playing with babies. I never saw myself doing that. I never was - it sounds really bad- but I never, you know, volunteered to babysit. I didn't have many babies around me. You know people say they have, you know, butterflies whenever they see kids? I just didn't have all of those feelings. So I just felt like maybe I'm not maternal, maybe I don't have a desire for children and I know that I'm, you know, I'm Nigerian. So it's almost set in stone that as a Nigerian woman, you have to somehow go on to have kids, preferably more than one, get married and you're supposed to have this type of career, you know, doctor, lawyer, or engineer. And that's the only career you're allowed to have. And so I knew, yes, part of my plan to have kids one day, but I didn't really have that yearn like a lot of my friends, I would say did at the time. So that was my fear is "how am I gonna switch on this maternal feeling?" that I never felt like I had at the time. And also, um, I guess some people always envision carrying babies. I never had that vision. I always had vision of, um, my career aspirations, but not necessarily children at the time. Um, and that just shows you that anyone can be a good mum -you don't have to have the quote unquote "training". You don't have to, be raised with the skills of what it's like to be a good mother. You don't have to have lots of babies around you. Anybody can, can be a mother in their own special way. Absolutely, and beautifully put, and I think it's so important that we explore that thing that we as women sort of grow up with these expectations, whether it's our own expectations or whether it's societal expectations of what being a 'good' mother looks and feels like. You know? And it always seems to be this kind of like Laura Ashley dress wearing sort of, you know, babies on each hip. Everybody's experience of motherhood is different. But are you comfortable talking about Zoe's birth? Because that was quite a traumatic experience for you, wasn't it? Yes, it was, um, I will say that my pregnancy was absolutely fine. Um, in terms of like how I felt. I did have, uh, moments where I kind of questioned, um, my, my midwife at the time because I didn't feel like she was particularly warm or welcoming or friendly towards me. And I did raise my concerns with my husband saying, you know, to him, "she doesn't really say hi. She doesn't really look me in my eye. She doesn't really address me by my name". And I noticed these tiny little, um, differences on how she treated me, but I just took it with a pinch of salt. Um, and didn't think or put too much thought into it. It was only when I had my birthing experience where I was sent home a few times. Um, Which was fine initially. Um, and then the final time I said, "I'm not going home. I would like to be seen. I would like you guys to check me out cause I'm in an incredible amount of pain. I just felt like they dismissed my concerns and my worries and I didn't believe that they were putting my interest, um, as a priority. Why did they send you home? They, it is such a long time ago that I even forget the wording, but they literally said that I'm not dilated enough. Um, and that's basically their excuse. Even though I was never checked, bearing in mind is my first child. My expectations are very, as you mentioned, expectations were very much "so if I'm feeling contractions, if I come into the hospital, they'll check me first and then make their decisions up". But they didn't -just sent me home. So they didn't check you, so how could they tell you weren't dilated enough? Vikki. I don't, I I have no idea. Um, I really want to swear badly, but I'm not, I mean, what the actual... my God. Yeah, it's horrible because when you think about it in hindsight now, um, I know why they disregarded me. And I strongly believe that my race had a lot to do, um, with my treatment, my, my mistreatment, my ill treatment, lack of adequate care. Um, and then I asked for pain relief. And I remember the nurse getting frustrated and quite angry with me saying that I'm kind of like screaming and I'm crying and I, I shouldn't be in pain because my contractions aren't happening yet. She basically was getting frustrated at my distress, and then I had to kind of like hold my cries in and hold my pain in. And again, that, um, does. Uh, to kind of show. Now, I know in hindsight that black women, unfortunately, we do have to silence ourselves. Um, and that's why we are very reluctant to raise our concerns because when we do, we're told that we're exaggerating. We're told that we're being too loud and too passionate or too aggressive sometimes. Um, I was called aggressive during my labour, being told off, um, when you are in excruciating pain, you feel extremely helpless. I looked at my husband to beg him to like advocate on my behalf and poor him, he tried his best you know. That's why I would always say, if you are black, if you are Asian, if you are a mother of colour I would say get a doula or somebody that can speak and advocate for you on your behalf whilst you are in a vulnerable position. Yeah, absolutely. I think, yeah, I mean my birth trauma was, you know, very different circumstances. But again, that thing of being told I wasn't in labour when I was in labour being yeah, absolutely disregarded and not having that advocate to, you know, but again, you know, our partners, our birthing partners- if you're lucky enough to have a birthing partner, especially if it's the first time- of course they're in awe of the medical profession and because everybody assumes the medical profession know best and so don't want to make things difficult, but you are absolutely right, that feeling of invalidation, especially when you are so vulnerable and you are in incredible pain. We know the difference between a contraction and anything else- there's, there's a big difference. You know, you cannot mistake it for anything else! So, oh my goodness. It sounds like the most horrific experience. So how did things progress then when you said, this time, "I'm not going home, I need to be seen." Yeah, I didn't know, again, that I was induced. Um, only years later I realised I had a membrane sweep, but I wasn't told. So again, um, under the notion that I wasn't given full, um, choice over the options that I had, that. I was young-ish . Um, but I was definitely inexperienced. And so again, relying on a healthcare professional, believing that they have your, they will have your best interest at heart. They will give you the options. They will tell you exactly what they're doing. I didn't believe I had all of that. Um, fast forward and then I had the epidural after several hours of begging with my first daughter. Bearing in mind with my second daughter, I didn't have any pain relief despite asking and begging for it for hours and being told that there was a queue and this queue never got to me. Um, and with my second daughter, why it's so distressing is because although it was, you know, almost two years apart, almost the same thing happened. So it couldn't have been a coincidence. Similar- sent home, ignored, dismissed. But with my second daughter, I didn't get pain relief. I gave birth without any pain relief. And they didn't believe me. My daughter passed meconium stool on the way out because she was under a lot of stress as well, and I ended up just falling down to the floor and they pressed the buzzer and lots and lots of nurses came in. It was like a panic, it happened so quickly. So quickly. And both occasions I had to have a third degree tear, um, which wasn't really pleasant, but all of these experiences, why I'm mentioning it, is because definitely I think it had so much to do with my depression afterwards, like going through that traumatic birthing experience, especially with my first daughter when I had nothing to compare it to. Um, that bond that I thought would happen immediately didn't happen because of just thinking "what happened? What's actually going on? What did I just experience in the last 24 hours? Why did they treat me this way?" It got so bad that I said to the nurse, "are you treating me this way because I'm, I'm black?" And that's exactly what I said. Even though I had no idea around the stats surrounding, um, ethnic minority mothers - I'm sure you know, that we're now four times more likely to have complications, um, and, and die. We're more likely to report that we're not being treated with kindness. We're more likely to also, um, not get any pain relief. So all of these stats that I'm now aware of, I experienced all of that. Definitely didn't believe I was treated with any kindness or any empathy. Just definitely didn't feel like I had much choice as well. And then when I gave birth, um, it's, it's a long story. I I do go in more detail in my book. Um, and my, the lack of trust that I definitely built up with healthcare professionals as a whole in the, the entire system from, you know, my labour experience to giving birth and to my treatment afterwards, that made me um, create a wall. And I just didn't want to speak to anybody that I know worked within the NHS. Just because I just felt like if, if this person can treat me in that way and this person can treat me in that way, then they must all be like that. And I know now in hindsight that's not necessarily true, but the system is extremely flawed, where it's not really giving adequate care to every, every type of a mother or birthing person. And I, I have you to thank for alerting me to those stats because I had no idea. I mean, you know, I, I'm obviously talking from a position of privilege, because I'm white, you know, I live in London. I come from a non- disadvantaged background. But I still felt it was very uncaring, no empathy. And I was absolutely shocked and distressed by the statistics that you talk about with black and ethnic minority mums. I can't believe it's not more known. And this is something that you are dedicating your life to talking about and making sure that the black maternal experience is amplified and that mums have somewhere to go to talk about their experiences. So I'm really looking forward to talking to a little bit later on about the work that you're doing with the Motherhood Group and also, you know, all the work that you've been doing with the healthcare profession because you're very much involved with reeducating, which I think's incredible, you know, such a positive thing out of such a negative experience. But I'm very curious what your aftercare felt like when you came home with Zoe, in terms of visiting midwives or health visitors. What was that like for you? It was, um, not very pleasant and the reason why it wasn't very pleasant, because I did have an incident with the midwife that I did notice who wasn't very friendly and warm. Um, I won't go into too much details now because it has been resolved, but I did end up writing a letter of complaint to how she treated me and what she'd done subsequently after I gave birth as well, which I would say had a massive impact on my mental health and my trust, um, with healthcare professionals. And I think if you are going to be a midwife, a healthcare professional, a health visitor and work in the public sector as a whole, you have to be prepared to look at your own preconceived notions for anybody that you are speaking or engaging with. And if your view is very negative to a particular type of person, you're not going to deliver fair, just, adequate care. You're just not going to - whether you understand it or believe it or not. And that's what happened in my case. And in so many other mother's cases, I've heard similar, very, very similar stories of, you know, being racially profiled, having stereotypes, harmful stereotypes being pushed on them. You know, assuming that if you walk in, you are a a single or uneducated mother, and therefore don't deserve quality care or quality treatment. And all of this paints a very detrimental image of what healthcare professionals are. And I know that they're not all like that, and that's probably not... they're not going into the profession trying to harm mothers or, or patients. But that's what happens over time. And because of that, there is, I would say, a massive gap between the community of birthing people, mothers, um, black mothers and healthcare services. And just like you mentioned, there is a lot of education that needs to be had that is currently going on to almost dismantle the institutional racism and also individual prejudice that I think everybody has, whether it's covert or overt, whether you, you are aware of it or not. But taking that into a setting where somebody is relying on you to keep them alive, deliver their baby, and make sure that they have safe, um, aftercare is crucial. I, I think, yeah. Absolutely. And, um, yeah, I, had, an incredible chat with Christina Brown of Motivational Mom's Club, and she was saying very similar things in terms of like the boxes that black women are put into. And if you assert yourself in any way, you are seen as 'aggressive' or 'confrontational'. When you are vulnerable and you are asking for help, you know, giving birth to your baby and, you know, it's, scary whether you've done it before or not. It's a scary time. And to then have that added pressure and stereotyping and as you say, racial profiling pushed onto you, it's, yeah, it's, it's something has to be done. What would you say to any healthcare professionals who are listening now, who want to better educate themselves or improve the service . Their end. What would you say to them? Um, a hundred percent there needs to be a lot more training and education around supporting and engaging with all types of birthing people and mothers, parents. Um, there needs to be a conversation about "do you actually know some of the awareness and beliefs around perinatal mental health, maternity services within the black community? Are you genuinely engaging on a day-to-day basis, or at least frequently with this community, outside of just delivering babies? Or, you know, are you making sure that your language is culturally competent, that you are aware of some of the cultural barriers? Are you making sure that you are understanding the importance of diverse community groups, resources, platforms. Are you trying to increase or be more proactive in discussing perinatal mental health? What does shame or stigma look like within the community? The impact of faith, the impact of religion, make all, all of the barriers that might prohibit a mother from accessing support. Does she have the right resources, the space, family structure?" All of these questions, I would say have not necessarily been addressed or been put as a priority when it comes to services or if you're a healthcare professional. That's what I think needs to be, um, mandatory when you are taking up that role and if you are speaking, engaging with all types of, of birthing people and mothers. Yeah, very well said. And if we go back to sort of how you felt then when you were at home with Zoe, you were a first time mom, you'd been through a very traumatic birth where you didn't feel listened to in any way, and your experience was totally invalidated. How did that manifest in terms of your declining mental health? Yeah. So at the time I didn't realise it, but I, I withdrew from family and friends. Um, I stopped answering phone calls. I didn't like going out as much or I stayed indoors. I didn't like to see the sunlight. Now my windows are open. I love sunlight. But at the time I shut the curtains, um, I didn't put on the tv. I didn't want to look out at social media or media outlets. I didn't wanna know the reality of what the world was doing 'cause I just wanted to stay and remain in my bubble. And all of this now is just so bizarre because that's not my character. that's not my natural character, but I changed into this withdrawn you know, person. And that's how it manifested initially. But at the time it's like, children are a blessing. Marriage is a blessing. Being a woman with a family, it's a blessing. So you are not able to speak up about some of the issues that you are going through or some of the worries or the concerns that you have, your body is changing, your lifestyle is changing. Your baby is relying on you 24 hours a day. Breastfeeding was difficult and so hard. My child she loved breast milk, but she didn't like breastfeeding, so I had to exclusively pump. And that meant every hour on the timer you would just hear 'err err err'... Oh God, that's, that's so tough. And so I didn't get a sleep, no more than an hour at each time in the evening. I was on the pump ridiculously all throughout the day. That took a toll on my mental health. I googled and checked exclusively breastfeeding. That's, there was no resources at all. It was either breastfeeding or bottle feeding. Nothing that, you know, uh, could represent mothers like me who their child didn't like, you know, breastfeeding only liked being bottled fed, but only like the flavor of breast milk. And that was difficult in itself. Then not feeling good enough, like, um, is my baby rejecting me because she doesn't want to actually physically breastfeed? "What am I doing wrong?" Being anxious. And I remember just feeling like people were judging me and that's why when the health visitor came, my house was spotless. Everything was just down to a tee. Perfect. And I, I felt like I had to do all of this to hide the fact that I felt like I was struggling internally. And unfortunately, again, um, I think Chrissy mentioned this as well, but black mothers don't necessarily get the perinatal mental health support that they need and don't get the follow-up treatment. But not only because we are not seen as 'depressed', but also we don't really necessarily really like to speak about depression as well. So it's, it's both ways. Um, and why we aren't seen as depressed is because lots of us are high functioning. We're working really, really at high levels, doing great things, but deep down we're just about floating on the water and that's what I felt like I, I was doing, um, at the time. So that's how it manifested itself physically, um, and emotionally as well. And with your family background and your culture, if you did try and open up about how you were feeling, was that something that was encouraged ? SANDRA IGWE: No, absolutely not. Um, it's, it's quite common actually in African communities. Not all, I won't say every single family household, but quite common that mental health is almost like a privilege to speak about. Like, "what do you have to be depressed about? You have a roof over your head, you can pay your bills. You have a caring and stable partner. You have enough finance. What are you complaining about?" It's almost like you've got so much that you are being quite ungrateful. And that's why I was reluctant to speak out and when I did try to, it was "no, it's just, you're just having a bad day!" You know? "Just have some soup, have some chicken and you'll be fine!" And so, Or "you're just a bit tired." A bit tired and once you realise "okay, nobody's necessarily taking this seriously", you generally then choose to keep quiet and hide it. But what I did find solace in was in other mothers who were going through exactly what I was going through, you know, had a new child or, or was pregnant, was from Afro-Caribbean backgrounds who understood the cultural elements of the stigma and the shame surrounding perinatal mental health, um, being British, but from England. So also understanding some of the cultural context here and how that meshed in with our, um, our family background. Also being Christian and knowing that as a Christian. You know, any struggles or challenges you have, pray, pray about it. But then how conflicting that is when you are actually physically struggling and the prayers aren't making you snap into, into place. And so it felt so, um, overwhelmingly positive to finally be able to speak to other mothers like me, because I didn't have lots of friends that had babies or kids at the time. So I felt like I was going through it alone. And it's comforting to know that your situation isn't a standalone and then other people are going through it. And I guess I found my village, or I found my, I created my village, my tribe, and that was my way of healing and going through the process without going to professional healthcare services, which I'm not proud of. But I think everyone needs to find a way of the best steps to getting the support that they need. It might be through your gp, it might be through family, friends, creating your own tribe, your village. It might be through reading, meditation. There's so many different avenues and also, um, how they can all kind of come together as well, work together to provide adequate support. And I think that's it's another really important thing to say that everybody's experience is different and everybody's recovery is different. There is no right or wrong way of recovery. There's no right or wrong in terms of the support you need. It's whatever feels useful and helpful to you. And one of the things that I've found is quite a lot of mums have reached out to me since doing this podcast to say because they were never formally diagnosed with postnatal depression, they feel they can't sort of claim it, but they, they really struggled. And I'm like, well, If you had all these experiences and it was really, really tough and you went to a dark place, you know, it doesn't matter that you weren't formally diagnosed, it's still an incredibly valid experience. And I think absolutely what you were saying- you know, 'cause I felt exactly the same- I wanted to meet other mums who felt the way that I did. And that was the whole purpose of starting this podcast, was to try and reach, you know, especially parents isolated during Covid, anywhere in the uk or it's been fantastic now that we've been downloaded in 20 countries. So I love the fact I've got Wow. That's amazing! Yeah. So I, you know, hello to all our international listeners! Because the important thing is to share these stories and I don't want anybody to feel isolated and alone in this illness. And it is an illness and exactly as you said- you can have all these wonderful things, you know, you had the baby that you dreamed of. You can have so many fortunate things going on in your life, but this depression is totally indiscriminate. And, you know, and the fact that people like Serena Williams and Cardi B, Adele- all these incredible women who are talented, look like they've got everything they could ever want, have money, fame, glamour, success and they still hit rock bottom and lose sense of who they are. You know, it just goes to show, and that's what the illness does- it robs you of who you are inside. But you have clearly been through that, come out the other side, and now you are using your energy and voice as a platform to lift up other moms around you. And I think it would be lovely to, now at this point, start talking about the Motherhood Group and how you found that voice again. Yeah. Um, I can definitely, I'm definitely proud of myself. I can say that about how I've used my pain and my trauma and my story and the dark elements of, um, early parenthood as well to advocate. I always say for myself and for other women as well, other people because, um, unfortunately there are so many people that have gone through of what I've gone through and they've not come out on the other side or they're struggling to find their voice. But I found that connecting with other people and hearing their stories and sharing my story. I started to exercise my voice. I found my voice again. Not only did I found who I was before and becoming a mum but I found a new version of me, uh, a more courageous, bolder person. What I'm speaking about and now and what I'm doing now, I could have never spoken on any platform, let alone a group of people six years ago. So that's been a massive milestone for me. It's even saying the word mental health. You would never catch me in a million years speaking about mental health or saying it or associating it with me at all. Um, And so that's how the Motherhood Group came about when I was longing or looking for safe spaces. 'Cause I, I couldn't find any, I couldn't find safe, culturally competent spaces that understood some of the nuances of being a mother with different layers of being a mother from the uk, Nigerian heritage, um, you know, kind of young and just all of the different layers that not just being a mum, you can't clump us all together. And that was quite refreshing to find my own tribe. And then we've met up for the first time and so many mums came down with their buggies and their babies. And I, I just couldn't believe, you know, how many mothers were positively impacted from having this safe space. Some mothers came from Northampton all the way to London saying that they've never, ever seen anything or been to anything like this before. "When is the next one? When is the next event? When is the next space?" And so I saw there was, um, a need. There was a need. So what was the first event that you put on then? Yes, it was in South West London, I mean Clapham. And I said "Mums, come down. We're gonna have a meet up. There'll be lunch. We can speak about the highs but we're gonna speak about the lows too. People came down, lots of them, I'd say 70, 80 mums and their buggies. Oh my goodness- that's amazing! To the point where the venue manager was like, "there's too many buggies here!" We couldn't even move, the buggy was blocking the corridor and the steps! And mothers were crying there- not in a sense of sadness, but almost in a sense of like feeling relieved. Um, um, talking therapy is such, is so empowering. You don't even realize that. Just even talking about a situation and listening and offering feedback, and now I know that's called, that's called peer to peer support. By the time it was just called a meetup, it was just called talking. It was just Yeah. Yeah. And that was amazing and that was how I found my sense of strength back. And the more that I kept putting on these events and these workshops and these classes and these groups for mums, the more empowered I felt empowering other women. And so it was almost addictive for me because I found myself. So I was carrying my baby around and doing these talks and doing these events, and she was just on my chest with the, you know, the, the strappy, yeah, yeah- the wraps or the... The wraps! Baby Bjorns! Yeah. Yes! With her little feet dangling whilst I was, you know, hosting these events. And it was, looking back now it's kind of crazy, but , it, it was so amazing! And so seeing the mums coming back, bringing a friend and bringing more friends and it just grew, kind of spiralled out. Um, but that, for me, one word I would call is community. That's what community looks like. For the first time hearing other mums saying "I have struggled, or I am struggling with mental health issues, with perinatal mental, I'm feeling depressed." And almost everyone saying, "I haven't told my gp, I have not told my health visitor, I won't go to services." I knew at that point that this, this place or this space that I've created through the Motherhood Group can act as a bridge if we invite healthcare professionals to our spaces or we can communicate some of our needs and our wants and our desires. This can be the way that we can positively impact policies and changes and reform for maternity services. Because I knew that services wanted to know "what can we do to improve outcomes for black mothers?" But they just wasn't talking directly to us and they didn't have a way of reaching us. We had a Black Maternal Mental Health Awareness Week launched two years ago, but our theme last year was 'Black Mothers Are Not Hard To Reach' because that's the one thing that. Yeah, I remember seeing that and that's the thing. It's like, that's almost putting a barrier in place and you know, I just want to put a caveat that we're not beating maternal health services in any way because they're absolutely beyond stretch and there are so many wonderful people doing wonderful things, but this is about 'how can we make it better?' And 'how can we make every mum's experience a positive one?' And small things like words do huge amounts of damage. So even just looking at the language that's used and bringing more compassion into a very stretched workplace. It's about remembering that it may be business as usual in the maternity ward, but for many of us it's, you know, a very frightening experience. There are circumstances where I have heard, you know, wonderful experiences. And what I always say is, how can we implement good practice? What does good practice or good support or good care look like? And how can we roll this out to everybody so that every mum and every service provider can do the same thing? Is it changing the language and communication? Is it asking the right questions? Is it acknowledging their race, their faith? Is it being more caring, more empathetic? What does that actually look like and how can we make sure that this is the standard? This is the standard for everybody? And so in terms of your recovery, it sounds like you were doing all this whilst you were still in recovery yourself. When was the turning point for you, where you just thought, "actually, I'm feeling better now", because it's always very hard to pinpoint that moment, isn't it? Where you're like, " I'm okay." I cannot pinpoint "this was the day and the time that everything changed around dramatically." I'd say it was gradual. It was gradual. But I can fully say that I can speak about at least 98%, maybe no actually a hundred percent, because in my book I speak about a hundred percent of all the things and the areas that crippled me at the time of being pregnant as a new mum and even up until now as well. And that for me is my turning point. Am I able to own my truth and speak about my truth? Am I able to not shy away of speaking about all the aspects? The beautiful and the hard parts of motherhood, of pregnancy, of accessing or trying to access care. If my answer is yes, and I know that that's, that's the best space I can possibly be in. Um, and for every mother it might take a couple of months, some years, some struggle to reach that point. But for me, it's a never-ending journey of constantly trying to increase my confidence, and also reminding myself speaking kind words to myself like I, I posted today that sometimes imposter syndrome rears it's ugly head, you know, kind of like doubting yourself or anxiety might creep in when you think, "can I do this? Am I actually good at this?" And it could be linked to parenthood, motherhood, but it could be linked to other areas of your life as well. But I think speaking positively, reminding yourself, grounding yourself, that's a way of taking control of your situation for the most part. Mm. And again, those words that we use for ourselves matter hugely as well. And you know, gosh, it's, easy for me, like talking as if I've got it all right and I beat myself up on a daily basis! So it's one of those things that, you know, Self-care and compassion is, not easy to do. And I think as Mums we find it very hard to turn the focus on ourselves rather than our children. But it is something that's so important. And I'd just like to direct any listeners now to two episodes on 'Self Compassion' with Poonam Dhuffer of YSM8. And she talks so well about, just little things that we can do to make ourselves feel better and more confident about our parenting. And there is also a Loving Kindness Meditation that, you know, gosh, if the word meditation makes you feel sick and want to run away, all you have to do is just like, listen to it. You don't need to meditate, you don't need to do anything. But if you listen to the words and the positive affirmations in terms of "I am good enough, I am not a failure", and about not letting a bad day or a bad morning, or a bad incident throw you off your course and that, you know, that is just a temporary thing and it will not be forever. I think it's really, really helpful in terms of people's recovery. How was your partner in all of this? Was he aware of how you were feeling? Did you open up to him or did that take some time as well? I opened up to him. Um, I think it's sometimes difficult for men, partners, to fully comprehend or understand. I mean, they are going through changes as well. And I would not underestimate the changes that a man or a father or a dad might take as well. But, um, you know, just physically pushing out a child... It's a big deal. It's a massive deal with you, um, you know, the physical changes, my body actually changing certain things just not feeling right. The emotional changes. Obviously he tried his best to support in a way that he could financially- he was working really, really hard. And of course with the whole, pumping thing, if he could pump breast milk for me, I'm sure he would, but he couldn't so he could offer to hold the baby whilst, you know, I'm, I'm pumping, but, I think there's something beautiful about connecting with other mothers who are going through what you're going through. And I think as simple as it is, he just wasn't a mum, but he understood he could, um, sympathise- maybe not necessarily empathise as much as he possibly could at the time- but he was very supportive and he still, he still is my, my backbone. But not all mothers are privy to having, um, partners. And that's also something that I was aware of at the time that, you know, my friends or people that I met who were single mothers who were going through what I was going through, but had an added layer of, um, not having that additional in-house support. But then again, I also realised that support looked different to everybody. So some people had their mothers and their mother-in-law and their family members in their home and supporting in them in that way. Whereas I had moved out from London where I was, living at the time to the Midlands where I didn't have that, you know, physical external support. So things balanced itself out. But it was, it was difficult at the time. But as they got older, I wouldn't say it's easier, it's changed. Um, they don't rely on breast milk anymore, which is great. They can walk, they can talk, they can express what they want, Zoe and Chloe. So it makes it easier to give them what they're crying for. And also they're a bit more independent. They can go to the toilet by themselves and they're currently in school right now. So you do find your, your rhythm, you know, there is no manual for motherhood. There is no strict plan or guidance on how to be a wonderful mum or wonderful parent. You find your own groove. You find your own pace and I feel like I finally found what works for me and my family, which is great. Gosh, everything you're saying is so golden, it resonates with me so hugely. And again, it's about finding your own version of motherhood, not somebody else's, not something that you've Googled, not something that you've read in a manual. It's what's right for you and your children. And I, I remember being utterly overwhelmed and bewildered when people were saying to me when Stanley was first born about, you know, "trust your instinct". And I'm like, "I don't have an instinct. I don't have an instinct!" And that would make me even more anxious and panic. And, and actually now looking back I realise I did have instincts, you know, when, I was told to do controlled crying or something and that just felt so wrong to me. Not putting that down in any way, you know, everybody's beliefs and approach to parenting are totally different and that's fine, that's okay. But for me, when my son was crying, I had to respond. I wanted to respond. And everywhere I looked for advice, it was all conflicting anyway. And I think it is about sort of just realising that actually "my way is okay, it's good and sometimes it's better than good." And what's lovely is as you see your child grow up, as you are now experiencing with Zoe and Chloe, that as they become their own individual people and you can interpret their needs so much easier than when they were babies because they can tell you directly, but you also get a sense of how your parenting style has influenced them. I'm curious to just talk for a moment about your faith. Did you find that a comfort? Did you question your faith when you were feeling so low? I will be honest in question. I think I did question it to a certain extent. You know, why is this happening? Why do I feel this way? But I would say for the most part it was my source of comfort, my source of strength, and not just the, um, beliefs around it, but also the community aspect. So I actually joined a church and that for me helped as well with the physical elements that I was craving at the time, as a new mum you know. Finding a really good church that we could kind of be a part of and that was like the community element. But also some of the conversations around perinatal mental health or mental health as a whole, and some of the beliefs from the church or from the Bible. I'd say some of it can feel sometimes conflicting, you know? One of the scriptures that I hold dearly onto is "be anxious for nothing" but I'm like, "I do feel anxious!" Yeah and if you start feeling anxious about feeling anxious then it becomes this whole cycle! It's like, "Come on!" Like, you know, but, um, I think just almost like reciting positive words and reciting the scriptures and reciting things that I know that would help me emotionally, mentally, was a form of therapy. Some people might call it mindfulness. Others would say, you know, meditation, some would see it as prayer. But all of it is kind of speaking to yourself and getting your mind to a place that even though you can't control the things physically around you, with your mind you can kind of control what you allow yourself to ponder on. You know, and that's what I think helped me get out of really, really challenging, emotional times as a new mum. Yeah. I think it's so important to say, you know, whatever gets you through, it doesn't matter what it is. Just finding a moment of joy in every day. Whether it's a beautiful flower, whether it's a smile, a patch of sunlight, just anything to try and lift you and, just something to cling onto when you're in the depths of what you're going through. So , you know, if you could speak to somebody at home that is listening to this, who perhaps because of cultural differences or fear of speaking out, of being stereotyped or judged, what would you say to them if they're struggling and know deep down that they need some help? Yeah, I would say give yourself grace, the space and the time to find your voice. As I mentioned earlier, some, you know, take years before they get to that stage where they have found their voice. Others, weeks, months. But give yourself that space to find your, like, don't rush it. Everyone wants to snap back after giving birth. You know, physically snap back body wise, mentally snap back. But it's not always the case. And I think as parents we've kind of put so much pressure on ourselves to get back to what we were prior motherhood, and this is why when you asked me what was Sandra like before motherhood, I really struggled to answer that question because it's almost a, a distant memory. But the moment you give birth, yes baby is going through changes, but we've also given birth to a new version of ourselves as well and I think we should and can embrace that. I think one of the reasons why a lot of us struggle with our mental health is because we're trying so hard to go back to who and what we used to be, but we're not really embracing all of the changes. And some of these changes will be better for us, or not better, but I'd say new, newer. Let's take on these changes wholeheartedly. So what I'm trying to say is don't be afraid to speak out, but don't give yourself too much pressure to snap back to how you used to be. Find your tribe. Find your village, create that. And it doesn't have to necessarily be just and only your immediate family or your immediate friends. Expand, look and check outside of the box. You know, go out, meet people. Some mothers feel anxious about meeting new people- you don't have to do it physically, you can do it online as well. Twitter is amazing. I, I met a girl- just liked her picture on Twitter when I was a new mum and we then DM'd each other and we found out our babies were like a few weeks apart and that's how we connected. And she lived all the way in Liverpool and I lived in, um, the time the Midlands, but we spoke and just having that conversation brought me so much joy and relief as well. And then I'd also say healthcare professionals are doing a lot of work. I know I'm, I'm right in those meetings and I can see that they are making efforts to make changes, you know, structural changes so that they can address so many health inequalities that black women are subjected to. But we also have a job as black mothers to raise our concerns and to not take no for an answer and also to get a second opinion as well. And I don't think the burden should be and solely be on us, but if we can do it or we can get somebody to do it on our behalf, let's do that I think. It's worse staying silent than speaking up. Even if you're getting it wrong, doesn't matter. It's better to speak up and speak out. And then I'd say embrace every moment. As we said earlier on, there is no manual. There is no guidance, so you might get it wrong. You try it again, you try something else, and there is no perfect mother as much as social media likes to push and put out there, that this is the, you know, the guideline of how to be a wonderful social media, snazzy, sassy mom. There is no such thing. And some people are choosing to not let that side of their journey out on display and others are choosing to. So don't compare yourself because comparison is always going to be the thief of joy. So don't watch what others are doing. Focus on your own journey and enjoy the little moments as much as you can, as you just said. Yeah. Yeah. Beautifully put. And you also offer some free support through the Motherhood Group, so how do people get hold of you or get access to that support? Yeah, so the Motherhood Group offers free doula support. If you have a child under the age of one or you are pregnant, you can access free doula support. Just go on our website, the motherhood group.com and just fill in the short form. We can process that and just ask you a few questions. Likewise with the counselling 12 week therapeutic approach using professional counsellors to offer counselling support. Again, if you have a baby or a child under the age of one, then it'll be free, and if you're pregnant as well. I always say that "don't wait until the plane crashes", if anything you could just do it as a preventative measure. If you just start to notice that maybe you are withdrawing just slightly or you are feeling anxious, you know. Early intervention is really, really helpful. You know, if you can nip things in the bud they before get too too severe, brilliant. Exactly. So that's there, same website as well, themotherhoodgroup.com. And then peer support- we often do mini events. So we have an event called Mums Connect. So we're speaking about parenting, gaining your confidence back. And I'm tired of that narrative only being pushed out that "Motherhood? Oh my goodness, your life is over! The end!" No, there are so many great parts and aspects of motherhood and we're trying to use that to empower and celebrate each other. So we're gonna take mums to the theatre and we have few other events throughout the year as well. So just subscribe to our newsletter so that you'll be aware of it. Same website. Amazing. Well, you're such an inspiring lady. And, just very final question, do you feel in some ways that you've grown or benefited from the dark experience you went through?. Yes, absolutely. I know that I wouldn't be where I am and who I am today without those experiences. And whatever doesn't kill you- I hate to use that term- but, um, can make you wiser. I don't wanna say stronger because I, I always stay away from trying to be strong. I don't wanna be strong, but it can make you wiser. You can learn from those experiences, you can grow and you can also help others and those around you. What I now know, I make sure I speak about it to those around me, those who are planning on having kids, those who are new parents, telling my daughters "now if you are feeling anxious, sad, low, let mummy know, it's okay to express yourself and it's okay to get support. Just drilling that into them from as young as possible so they don't have to go through what I went through or what other mothers are currently going through now as well. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the common thread through all of my interviews is that feeling that actually, you know, when we all at times beat ourselves up for not being good enough parents or for feeling like a failure because we had struggles with our mental health. Actually, in many ways it's making us better parents because we are able to talk to our children about emotions and encourage them to regulate those emotions and to open up. It's okay not to be okay. So, um, thank you so much for your time this morning. It's been an absolute joy chatting to you. Thank you Vikki. If you've enjoyed this episode of Blue MumDays, please like and subscribe. It really does make the difference in helping other people find it, and that means helping more parents.
