Mum Guilt, Trauma and Systemic Inequality: DR ORINAYO ONABANJO

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:00:00

There's this immense pressure to be the perfect parent, to be

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super mum or super dad or whatever it is.

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it is compounded by societal images that we see out there and it's just

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not realistic to try to be perfect.

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Consider whether what you're aiming for is realistic.

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I know it might seem that way because, celebrities and people

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online make it seem so easy!

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Remember that whatever you see is one part.

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People choose what they present.

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Even friends and family members, they choose what they present to you.

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So you have no idea unless you obviously know somebody very well, all the other

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parts that they may be dealing with.

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Don't transpose a section or a snapshot of what somebody is showing you,

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and then use that to compare your whole life or your whole experience.

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Cause that just piles the pressure on more as well.

VIKKI: 00:00:58

Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life.

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But for many mums and dads, it can be the hardest and at

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times the darkest of places.

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Welcome to Season 2 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone

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struggling with parenting.

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All the stories shared here are from the heart.

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These are real conversations and may be triggering, so

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please listen with discretion.

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Today's episode covers birth trauma, birthing in extreme

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situations and post-traumatic stress disorder We will also signpost

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you to help in the show notes.

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Thank you.

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This episode was recorded during the spring of 2022.

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Today's Guest is Dr.

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Orinayo Onabanjo.

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Orin is a chartered counselling psychologist with a passion for

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delivering psychological therapy and perinatal wellbeing workshops.

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These are aimed at mums experiencing a range of mental health and interpersonal

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challenges during the perinatal period.

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Her skills also include helping mums cultivate stronger attachments

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with their babies and addressing the impact unresolved childhood trauma

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can have on the journey of motherhood.

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Orin has worked in mental health for 10 years in a variety of settings,

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including the NHS, charities and educational settings, bringing a wealth of

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experience to her role as a psychologist specialising in perinatal mental health.

VIKKI: 00:02:32

Welcome to Blue MumDays Orin, lovely to have you join us today.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:02:36

Thank you.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:02:37

It's good to be here.

VIKKI: 00:02:38

So, first of all, can you explain what you do and also why you got into

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perinatal mental health as a field?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:02:48

Yeah, sure.

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So in a nutshell, what I do, so I'm a psychologist, so I'm, predominantly

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offering psychological therapy.

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Sometimes this is individual or in a group setting to individuals

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experiencing a range of difficulties.

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But I have a specialist interest of working with Mums, um,

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during the perinatal period.

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I do offer therapy, I also do workshops, but I also do, training and consultation

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to other healthcare professionals around perinatal mental health as well.

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So that's some of the things I do.

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So a range of different things.

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And in terms of, why I got into perinatal mental health, I've just always been

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really interested in birth, pregnancy, from quite a young age, to be honest.

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And so when I was doing my psychology training, I attended a conference

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around perinatal mental health, and then it just occurred to me I had an

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epiphany really, and I thought, "oh, this is what I can specialise in since

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I've had this interest for so long".

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So yeah, that's how I found myself in this field.

VIKKI: 00:03:44

Rather than any lived experience, but, you know what an incredibly rewarding

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area and I would love to talk to you a bit later on about the work that you're

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doing with healthcare professionals, 'cause I think that's a really important

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thing that we can explore, but it would be really good to know in terms of,

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because this podcast is aimed at parents predominantly the sorts of things

VIKKI: 00:04:07

that you might offer help with for Mums or dads going through having a baby.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:04:13

Yeah.

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So I guess it's a range of things really.

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Um, sometimes it can be, low moods, so depression, it can be anxiety.

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And that anxiety can be about lots of different things- it could be about just

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the process of becoming a new parent and kind of, how that changes everything

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or it changes a lot of things for most people and and kind of adjusting to that.

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It can be worries around being a good parent, whether they're

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gonna do a good job or not.

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Sometimes it's more around relationship difficulties that, a

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person might be experiencing with their partner if they have one.

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And also identity comes up a lot, sort of yeah, becoming

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a mother, becoming a father.

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And yeah, the identity changes that happen and what your life was like

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before , and then, adjusting to a new configuration of yourself, as who you

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still are, but also as a parent as well.

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So those are some of the things that come up.

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And also birth trauma comes up lot as well actually.

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So I do work with a lot of parents around processing their birth

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trauma and seeing what it is that they need as opposed to, not

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necessarily move on, but to feel that they can recover the experience.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:05:17

So yeah, there are a few things there.

VIKKI: 00:05:19

And for anybody that's listening who has had a traumatic birth or

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feels that they're having negative effects of their birthing experience,

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we do actually have a specific episode relating to birth trauma with Dr.

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Rebecca Moore of Make Birth Better.

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So please look out for that episode and give it a listen.

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Becoming a parent is literally a roller coaster of emotions and I

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love that you are actually looking at the whole perinatal period.

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So for anybody that doesn't know what perinatal means, it's from pregnancy

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through to actually your postnatal period.

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So it's the whole thing rather than just before or just after.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:05:58

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:05:59

I'd love to talk to you more about the identity thing because that's

VIKKI: 00:06:03

something that I as a parent, really related to, and a lot of the people that

VIKKI: 00:06:07

I've spoken to have felt quite difficult emotions around adjusting to being...

VIKKI: 00:06:15

suddenly your "mum", and your identity as an individual, disappears overnight.

VIKKI: 00:06:22

And also in terms of the postnatal care you get, it's always very much aimed at

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the baby and less about, "how are you mum?

VIKKI: 00:06:31

How are you, dad?"

VIKKI: 00:06:32

So yeah, if you could talk a bit more about that.

VIKKI: 00:06:34

Thank you.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:06:35

Yeah.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:06:35

Yeah, definitely.

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I think a lot of people struggle with that, and I think sometimes people

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:06:40

find it difficult to say that they're struggling with that because it's

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:06:42

obviously, it's seen as such a joyous thing, and for most people, having a

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:06:46

baby is, but just because it's a joyful thing doesn't mean it's not hard work.

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Of course, it's hard work and it's, it's it's a person, it's a little

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person, but they're gonna grow up into being a fully fledged human being.

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And it's like it changes the family dynamic, it changes the family system, it

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changes your life both psychologically, but also practically on a day to

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day basis, your life has changed.

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So I think a lot of people struggle because perhaps they're not,

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they're no longer able to do the things that they were doing before.

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'Cause now you know, the central focus of their life is

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no longer maybe their career.

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Anything else they may have been involved in or themselves really,

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now it's the central focus, it has to be about the baby, especially

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in those kind of early, early days.

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But I don't think it should be only just about the baby though.

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So I think it's really difficult.

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I think there's a lot of ambivalence 'cause there's the joy of it,

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there's the excitement of it, but then , people also often talk about

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a sense of loss and a sense of grief and feel quite ashamed to say that

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because they feel that they shouldn't be saying that 'cause they've got this

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blessing or they've got this gift.

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But the reality is that I think the way I see it or understand

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it is that life is a paradox.

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There's, good things happen, but it's not just always good.

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there's a number of things that, come with that.

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And you have to work things out and navigate it.

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And so I think I also see becoming a parent, becoming a mother,

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becoming a father, it can be quite paradoxical in terms of, you have

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a lot of mixed feelings about it.

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And that doesn't mean you don't love your child.

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It doesn't mean that you don't wanna be a parent, but like you're

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:08:13

a human being and you are going through all of these changes.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:08:16

I guess in, in the work that I do, I always really try to normalize

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:08:19

that sense of ambivalence, because it's normal to feel ambivalent.

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It's still life at the end of the day.

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It's a different phase of life.

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When do we ever just feel completely positive about anything really.

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It ebbs and it flows and there's good days and there's bad days.

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And I think the thing that, that can be quite shocking, is that

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sometimes people don't expect that identity change or expect that shift.

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they might imagine, oh yeah, obviously they're going into a

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new phase of life and they're preparing themselves mentally for it.

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But sometimes it's when you actually get there, then you think, "oh my gosh, this

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is what it's really like" sort of thing.

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And so I think, it's about as much as possible trying to

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cultivate, self-compassion.

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I think during that time as much as possible to just allow yourself to

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adjust, 'cause it's a transition.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:09:04

And why should you expect yourself to just be able to go through a transition

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smoothly without any blips, without, you know, everything going perfectly.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:09:12

It's just not real.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:09:12

It's not realistic as well.

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As far as I'm concerned, it's not realistic.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:09:16

And in terms of, my clinical experience of working with parents, that just

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doesn't really tend to be how it is.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:09:23

And there's a lot there.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:09:24

yeah, the identity thing is a big, it's a big thing.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:09:27

I think it's important to think about, I guess be open to the idea

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:09:30

that your identity will change.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:09:33

and that it may not be helpful to want to hang onto exactly what it

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was before, because now it just, it can't be exactly what it is before.

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But that doesn't mean you have to completely lose yourself.

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And even if you find that you do, that doesn't mean you can't find

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a way back to reconnect with the parts of yourselves that actually

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you really value and you hold dear.

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and sometimes it can be an opportunity to reflect and think, well, what,

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you know, what was I doing before?

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What parts of myself were kind of present before?

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Do I want to keep that?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:10:01

Or actually maybe, you know, through going through this process made me

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:10:04

think that's not something I wanna do anymore or be involved in anymore.

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That's not how I think anymore.

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And it's, it's quite a fluid dynamic process.

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So I think it's allowing it to be what it is, um, to be honest.

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But yeah, I've said a lot there.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:10:17

So

VIKKI: 00:10:17

No,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:10:17

I'll pause

VIKKI: 00:10:18

that's,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:10:18

a moment.

VIKKI: 00:10:19

no, it's fabulous and I think it's going to be hugely reassuring to a lot

VIKKI: 00:10:24

of listeners it's incredible because in any other field you have preparation.

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You know, like any sort of work experience or new experience,

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there's always lots of research you can do and prepare for things.

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But actually nothing quite prepares you for becoming a parent.

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You can do loads of reading, go to like workshops, NCT, whatever.

VIKKI: 00:10:47

But overnight you are suddenly responsible for a human being's life

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and nothing can prepare you for that.

VIKKI: 00:10:53

And just, just to have somebody with your authority and your experience to

VIKKI: 00:10:59

say it's okay, and it is normal to find that adjustment difficult and that's

VIKKI: 00:11:08

okay, and you don't need to snap into it overnight and you can grieve the

VIKKI: 00:11:12

parts of you that you feel you've lost.

VIKKI: 00:11:15

And having come through it myself, I would just like to reassure any

VIKKI: 00:11:20

listeners that as Orin says, the bits that you want to take with you, you

VIKKI: 00:11:25

will get back in touch with those.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:11:28

Hmm.

VIKKI: 00:11:28

especially in the, the first year of your baby's life, your child's

VIKKI: 00:11:32

life and the adjustment to becoming a parent, you might think, and especially

VIKKI: 00:11:38

with, you know, lack of sleep and your, your whole schedule just up in the

VIKKI: 00:11:42

air, that you are never going to get normal life as you knew it back again.

VIKKI: 00:11:47

But I am here to say you absolutely will, and that, it's just a matter of time.

VIKKI: 00:11:52

So just go with the flow.

VIKKI: 00:11:56

Again, as Orin says, life is a paradox.

VIKKI: 00:12:00

you're never going to be completely happy or completely unhappy.

VIKKI: 00:12:03

There's a lot of gray areas and just let those emotions come and go, but

VIKKI: 00:12:07

you are absolutely entitled and it is normal to find it a struggle at times.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:12:15

Hmmhmm completely.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:12:16

I completely agree.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:12:17

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:12:18

But it's funny actually how little things, like one thing I remember, so

VIKKI: 00:12:22

I've always been really into music and I would go to gigs all the time before I

VIKKI: 00:12:27

had Stanley and I was in an all girl rock band, and there was a point when I was

VIKKI: 00:12:32

absolutely at my lowest with postnatal depression was that, even if one of

VIKKI: 00:12:36

my favorite songs came on the radio, I had to turn it off because it would

VIKKI: 00:12:40

just, it was like this weird sort of signifier of my previous life and it would

VIKKI: 00:12:45

actually make me feel physically sick.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:12:47

Hmm.

VIKKI: 00:12:48

I don't think I'll ever fully understand it, but I think that was

VIKKI: 00:12:50

part of the illness and part of that thing about identity and who I was now.

VIKKI: 00:12:55

But it's, yeah, it's such a reassuring thing to hear that from you, so

VIKKI: 00:13:00

thank you for sharing that with us.

VIKKI: 00:13:02

What other issues do you find come up time and time again with

VIKKI: 00:13:06

the people that you work with?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:13:08

Yeah.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:13:09

I think another thing is around, I suppose childhood trauma.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:13:15

And when I say that trauma doesn't necessarily need to mean something

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:13:21

really, overtly obviously terrible happened during your childhood?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:13:26

For some people it is, it might be that, but sometimes, the other way

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:13:30

I can, I suppose phrase it is kind of difficult childhood experiences.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:13:33

So I think sometimes, not everybody's always fortunate to have necessarily

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:13:37

grown up in a family set up that was the ideal or good enough, 'cause

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:13:42

obviously it can never be perfect.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:13:44

And so sometimes there can be I suppose, almost what I would call

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:13:47

emotional wounds from that time, that rear their head again, when

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:13:52

you become a mum or a dad or parent.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:13:54

That's a lot of the work that I do actually, with some people, is like

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:13:57

processing the things that have come up for them because it's almost like in a

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:02

way they can sometimes feel that they're recreating a dynamic that they had

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:05

with maybe their parents or particular family members, with their own children.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:10

And they don't wanna do that.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:12

They don't necessarily pass on those same kind of intergenerational patterns.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:16

working through that, kind of trying to disentangle what's theirs, and put

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:21

things back where they belong, I suppose.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:23

And kind of like as a grown up,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:25

looking back at their childhood from a different, grown up lens rather than

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:28

from a childhood lens, 'cause obviously it's a very different vantage point.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:32

and so yeah, that's, something that comes up a lot is kind of working through

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:35

that and going back in trying to resolve some of the experiences that a person

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:39

may have had so that they can kind of almost decontaminate their own journey

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:44

towards being a parent and how they want to raise their children, how they want

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:48

to respond to their children, how they want to do things, rather than being on

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:53

autopilot and just repeating the patterns that you are used to, which we all do.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:14:58

So I think it is up for some people, it's a process of becoming more self-aware,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:01

about where they are and what I guess also unpicking what does parenting mean?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:06

What does it mean to be a mother?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:08

- I have to say that the work I do predominantly has been with, mums

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:11

what does that actually mean?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:13

And sometimes there'll be all sorts of connotations with what it means.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:16

And that's obviously going to leak into how you're going about it, as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:21

So that's something that, comes up a lot And another thing that comes up a lot is

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:25

learning to be more self-compassionate.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:27

There's a lot of self-criticism, there's a lot of very high expectations.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:31

There's a lot of perfectionism.

VIKKI: 00:15:33

I'm, I'm nodding furiously as you're

VIKKI: 00:15:34

saying this.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:36

yeah.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:36

And that's quite a common theme that comes up for people.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:39

There's this immense pressure to be the perfect parent, to be super

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:45

mum or super dad or whatever it is.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:47

And it is compounded by societal images that we see out there and I

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:52

know that there's a lot of work being done to change the narrative or come

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:55

up with a different narrative on social media and things like that.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:15:58

I think that's been there for a very long time.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:16:00

So I don't think it's something that's gonna be dislodged overnight really.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:16:04

But that's also learning how to be more compassionate.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:16:07

What does it mean to care for yourself?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:16:08

What does it mean to still prioritise yourself as well, even though you've got

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:16:12

this baby or babies or family really, if you've already got other children as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:16:17

So those are some of the things that come up.

VIKKI: 00:16:19

I think self-compassion is incredibly important.

VIKKI: 00:16:22

And again, we have two episodes with Poonam Dhuffer of YSM8 for anybody

VIKKI: 00:16:28

interested in how to be kinder to yourself and why it is so important, not

VIKKI: 00:16:33

just for you but for the whole family, please do listen to those episodes.

VIKKI: 00:16:37

And we also have a special Loving Kindness meditation- so for anybody

VIKKI: 00:16:42

who needs 15 minutes to relax and just recharge and reset, please listen to

VIKKI: 00:16:47

that and I hope it is helpful to you.

VIKKI: 00:16:50

But I think again, this, thing keeps coming up again about

VIKKI: 00:16:54

expectations and there's a lot of pressure we put on ourselves, as

VIKKI: 00:17:00

mums especially, to be 'perfect'.

VIKKI: 00:17:03

What is your advice to mums who struggle to be this ultimate super mum?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:10

Yeah, what's my advice, I suppose I'd say that it's

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:15

understandable, but I think the thing is all to, is also to unpick where that

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:20

came from because it's taken for granted.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:22

There's this pressure, you feel these expectations and you feel you've got

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:25

to adhere to them, but it's actually, are those your expectations really?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:29

Is that what you know, if you were to rid of all the noise,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:32

is that really what you feel?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:34

How you want to go about it?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:36

Was that really for you?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:37

What feels the healthy way to go about things?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:38

And I suppose the reason I say that is that sometimes there are all

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:40

these messages and sometimes they can come from our family as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:43

They can come from people who care about us.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:45

And it's like, you are internalising these messages, "I've got to

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:48

do this, I've got to do that.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:49

I've got to be this, I've got to be that".

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:50

So I think just, finding a bit of space to just reflect on, "well actually these

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:54

ideas or these rules I've come up with as to what I've got to do in order to be a

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:17:58

perfect mum, where did I get that from?"

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:01

You know and sometimes some of the work that I've done with people is that

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:04

actually unpicking and thinking, "actually that's not even really what I think.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:07

That's something I've heard and it's been drummed into me by, ex family member.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:12

And it's just the norm.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:14

But it's like I'm now realizing that it's putting me under way too much pressure.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:17

And then actually maybe I need to come up with my own narrative.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:19

I need to come up with my own rules".

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:21

So I would say feel free to actually try and I guess, I know it can be

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:25

hard to get into a space where you can reflect on what do you want it to be?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:29

what would it look like for you, to feel like it felt doable?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:35

You know, what would change, what would look different?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:37

Would that mean you sought more help in certain areas, certain things that

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:40

you didn't do or you kind of left and you weren't on top of all the time?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:44

And so I think trying to just encourage your own sense of, autonomy or agency

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:48

to define for yourself what it means to mother or to be a father, to be a parent,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:55

I think is the advice I would give.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:18:57

But also the other thing I would say is that- and it might sound a

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:01

bit, I don't know- but it's just not realistic to try to be perfect.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:05

And I don't know how else to say it is to just to consider whether

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:08

what you're aiming for is realistic.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:12

I know it might seem that way because, celebrities and people

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:15

online make it seem so easy!

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:17

I would also say remember that whatever you see is one part.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:22

People choose what they present.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:24

Even friends and family members, they choose what they present to you.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:28

So you have no idea unless you obviously know somebody very well, all the other

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:33

parts that they may be dealing with.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:35

Don't transpose a section or a snapshot of what somebody is showing you,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:40

and then use that to compare your whole life or your whole experience.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:44

Cause that just piles the pressure on more as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:47

It's not realistic to be perfect.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:48

I mean, there's this idea of, being a 'good enough' parent, and it's

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:52

just like, what's good enough?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:53

Because it's about you feeling okay too.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:19:57

And so you can feel okay to raise your child or to do the things that you need

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:20:00

to do, and actually self-compassion and perfectionism, they can't sit together.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:20:07

it might not be that easy if that's not something that comes natural to you,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:20:09

but I would say engage in compassionate action, so things that you know are

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:20:14

good for you, things that you need.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:20:15

It might not be that you're convinced internally or "I really deserve that", but

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:20:18

your behavior is still really powerful.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:20:20

And sometimes it's by changing your behavior, eventually it translates to

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:20:25

what's going on inside and you start to send yourself a different message.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:20:29

But if, you know, we're going around doing, perfectionistic things all

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:20:32

the time, it keeps that message going that this is what you need to

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:20:36

do in order to be a 'good' parent.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:20:38

So I think trying to find small ways to break that cycle, test it out, test out,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:20:43

not doing the perfect thing one day.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:20:46

Just see how it goes.

VIKKI: 00:20:47

Leaving the washing up and just being in the moment.

VIKKI: 00:20:50

I think mums in particular suffer from mum guilt.

VIKKI: 00:20:52

We're guilty about everything, and especially guilty when we

VIKKI: 00:20:56

do something for ourselves.

VIKKI: 00:20:58

And remember the the times if Stanley was asleep and instead of using that

VIKKI: 00:21:04

time fruitfully to either do the washing up or make some food or rest and relax,

VIKKI: 00:21:11

I would just "no, I need to be doing this or "no, I need to be reading Grazia"

VIKKI: 00:21:15

and I'd never end up doing anything.

VIKKI: 00:21:17

And actually, if you sit down with a magazine, that is okay.

VIKKI: 00:21:21

And if you do feel guilty and anxious doing that, that's probably okay too.

VIKKI: 00:21:26

And just let that feeling sit with you 'cause what you're doing is nothing wrong

VIKKI: 00:21:30

and actually it's really good for you.

VIKKI: 00:21:33

Self-compassion is not being selfish and it is not putting your

VIKKI: 00:21:37

needs above your child's needs.

VIKKI: 00:21:40

It is something that's important for you, but also for the whole family.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:21:44

Yeah completely, and I think also that- just to touch on the

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:21:48

point of mum guilt- is that sometimes guilt in general- not necessarily

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:21:51

in relation to this- is warranted, depending on what we've done or not done.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:21:56

But sometimes we feel guilt because, it's like we've almost kind of

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:00

been conditioned to feel guilt.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:02

Again, so it's like sometimes it's also the feelings that you get, "oh,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:05

I need to be doing this, I need to be doing that" or "if I don't do this

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:07

and it means this, it means that".

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:08

Where did that actually come from?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:10

Is that sort of like a societal thing that you know, we've taken

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:13

on, it's kind of been pushed on a lot of people, to be honest.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:16

So it's very hard to throw that off and be the one person who

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:18

doesn't ever get mum guilt.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:19

I'm not saying that, but it's just where did that come from?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:22

It's also about being able to interpret differently sometimes

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:25

the emotions that we have.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:27

So sometimes if you feel guilty then you then feel you have

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:30

to do something to correct it.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:31

But sometimes, you know, kind of similar to what you're saying, it's like, "okay,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:34

I'm feeling this guilt because, you know, maybe societally " or "these are

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:39

all the messages I've gotten about what it means to be a mother" and all of

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:41

these kind of thing, but actually I'm always been programmed to feel like this,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:45

but that doesn't actually mean I can't still watch TV for an hour or, you know,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:49

you can still override your feelings.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:51

Like you can still have the feeling and still do what it is,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:53

would be best for you, I suppose.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:55

It doesn't have to be one or the other, like you don't have to

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:22:58

obey your feelings all the time.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:23:00

So I suppose that's just challenging that a little bit.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:23:02

Cause sometimes our feelings are more a reflection of our internal

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:23:06

state rather than "we are doing something wrong", or "it's because

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:23:10

we should be changing our behaviour".

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:23:11

That's not always the case.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:23:13

So I would just make that point as well.

VIKKI: 00:23:15

Thank you Orin.

VIKKI: 00:23:17

The other thing I'd really love to talk to you, in more depth about

VIKKI: 00:23:21

is your work with black mums and ethnic minority mums because.

VIKKI: 00:23:27

I mean, something that I've learned through doing the research for this

VIKKI: 00:23:29

podcast is the absolutely astounding, statistics with regards to perinatal

VIKKI: 00:23:35

care for black and minority Mums.

VIKKI: 00:23:38

Can you talk to me about that?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:23:41

Yeah, some of you may have heard of Five Times More,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:23:43

and that statistic of black- well, I mean, it's, it's a bit less, I think

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:23:47

it's four and a bit times more- but the point is that, you know, five times

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:23:50

more likely to die in childbirth in and around that time, which is really awful.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:23:55

So there's that clear disparity between a black mother and their white counterpart,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:00

that exists, and there's been a lot of campaigning and raising awareness about

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:03

that, which I think has been so important.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:06

I guess also, from a, mental health, more psychology perspective, I've

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:10

also thought a lot about that statistic and thought, you know,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:13

there's also so many near misses.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:15

So obviously they're the people who sadly, unfortunately, do

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:18

die and do lose their lives.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:20

But what about the people who almost do- the trauma, the psychological

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:25

trauma of going through that, the psychological trauma of their

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:28

families going through that.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:29

So it is such an important thing that needs to be addressed and we need to

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:33

understand, and, I am reiterating what's already been said in the sense, but

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:36

we do need to do more research as to what is going on with that statistic.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:40

Obviously we can't deny the fact that race is a huge aspect of that.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:44

And I think also just speaking to I guess mental health as well is

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:49

that black mums are more likely to have or develop a mental health

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:52

problem during the perinatal period.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:55

They're less likely to get access to help, as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:24:59

And often there's this idea that they're hard to reach, but I'm not

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:02

really sure that I'm convinced by that.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:04

There's some breakdown somewhere and I think it does really need to be looked

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:07

at and the onus shouldn't just be on the black mothers to be the ones to have

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:11

to reach out and stuff, because if you know the system doesn't feel safe, how

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:15

easy is it for you to then still gather the courage or gather the strength

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:18

to then say you're gonna reach out?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:20

So I don't know how much a system is catered to the experience of, um,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:24

black families really, to be honest.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:27

Yeah.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:27

So there's a higher proportion of mental health difficulties in the

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:31

black community anyway, but also within the perinatal space, high incidents

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:35

of depression and things like that.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:37

So it's really sad and it's, I suppose that's also why, obviously I'm a black

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:41

woman myself, so it feels it's also really important for me to work with people

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:46

who look like me and who I look like.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:48

And I know that's an important thing in many of the clients I've

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:50

talked to, have said they felt a lot more comfortable speaking to me.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:53

And it's difficult because I guess also in my field, as a

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:25:58

psychologist, I'm a minority.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:01

I'm a very small minority of psychologists out there.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:04

Yes, predominantly they're women.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:06

So yes, I'm a female psychologist, but at the end of the day, the proportion of

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:10

black women as psychologists, is very low.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:12

So then when you think about how many black psychologists

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:16

or therapists are there in the perinatal mental health space?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:21

I think I can count on my hand how many, including myself, that I know of - and I

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:26

have looked into it, you know, as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:29

that's another thing is it's like, what about the representation specifically

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:32

for mental health in these perinatal mental health services, in the mother

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:36

and baby units, for people who, do have more severe difficulties.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:40

How much are they seeing themselves?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:42

How much are they reflected?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:43

How much are they mirrored in the services of that saying that

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:45

they're gonna provide them help?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:46

And I'm not to say that if you're black, that means you can't feel supported

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:50

by a white healthcare professional.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:52

I don't think that's necessarily the case.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:54

And I've had really good experiences with healthcare professionals

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:58

that haven't been black.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:26:59

Do you see what I mean?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:00

And it's not necessarily that if you get a black professional,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:03

you'll have a better experience.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:04

Not necessarily, but it's just the, it's also the kind of.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:08

The optics of it as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:10

They do matter as well in terms of creating a sense of safety

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:13

and making you maybe a bit more likely to reach out and seek help.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:16

So I think for me, that's a big issue for me, which is why I do work a lot

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:21

with black mums during this period, because I feel they're important too.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:26

And yes, it's not just black women who need help in the perinatal

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:30

space, but, like I said, the stats show that they need more help

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:34

cause that's more prevalent there.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:35

So for me it feels, it sits well for me to do that and that's

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:40

what I want to do as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:42

I'm just one person, , I know I'm just one person.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:46

I hope it will change.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:47

I hope.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:48

I hope it will change.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:27:50

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:27:51

It's so important and clearly you look at statistics and I had absolutely

VIKKI: 00:27:56

no idea that these statistics were so disturbing, Clearly there's a failure,

VIKKI: 00:28:02

a massive failure in terms of, how these women are treated and there is nothing

VIKKI: 00:28:07

more vulnerable than giving birth.

VIKKI: 00:28:09

You are never at your most vulnerable and emotionally sort of exposed.

VIKKI: 00:28:15

This takes us neatly into sort of the work you're doing with healthcare providers

VIKKI: 00:28:19

- does this feed into re-educating them in terms of how to work better with

VIKKI: 00:28:25

mothers and communicate better with mums?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:28:29

Yeah, so a part of my work is doing, training

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:28:32

around perinatal mental health.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:28:34

It's not a huge part of my work, but I have had some opportunities to do that.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:28:37

Not so much within NHS settings, but you know, kind of like other smaller

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:28:42

organizations who wanted to learn a bit more about it and to support.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:28:46

So some of these organizations do, support a whole range of mums, but

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:28:50

they want to kind of understand a little bit more about how to support

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:28:55

mums during that period as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:28:56

So I've done training, and I will be doing training in regards to that, but

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:28:59

also, yeah, it's just people who aren't necessarily, who work in the, who don't

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:03

work in mental health, who aren't mental health specialists or anything like that,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:06

but are gonna have a lot of contact with Mums, with dads, with families as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:11

I've done kind of training around you know, common mental

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:14

health difficulties, different organizations that are out there.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:17

So how to spot the signs and symptoms.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:20

Also thinking about the impact of certain mental health difficulties on

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:24

the person, on their family as well is some of the work that I've done.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:28

And that's something I would like to continue to do and kind of

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:31

work more closely with maternity professionals like midwives and health

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:35

visitors and everything like that.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:37

I I know perinatal mental health is definitely a lot more on

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:39

the agenda than it was before.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:41

so I think it's important to keep to, to keep pushing that really,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:45

'cause I think it's so important.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:46

'Cause obviously we're not expecting them to be mental health

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:49

experts and know everything to do.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:50

But I think the role there for maternity professionals, obstetricians, neonatal

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:55

nurses, you know, all these people, midwives is also, that it is about

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:29:58

training them to be able to assess when there's clearly a problem.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:02

So that then they can be signposted to something like a perinatal

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:06

mental health community team.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:08

And I know a lot of those teams do work closely with maternity departments

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:12

and maternity hospitals as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:14

Yeah, training is, so important.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:16

Something I'd like to do more of as time goes by as well, definitely.

VIKKI: 00:30:20

What do you think is needed then in terms of, especially with the, black mums?

VIKKI: 00:30:26

What are the top three things that would help?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:30

Yeah.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:31

Gosh, it's hard to, it's hard to say or to decide.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:34

Similar to what I said earlier, I think representation is a big issue.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:39

I'm not sure how far we're gonna get if the representation continues

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:43

to be how it is, especially, and I'm not talking so much in, I don't

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:47

know so much what the stats are for, midwives or, medical professionals.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:50

Obviously I'm, I'm, I'm a psychologist.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:52

I'm a doctor in psychology, not a medical doctor.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:30:56

But in mental health services that are predominantly for mums 'cause there's not

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:00

only the perinatal mental health community teams, they've also launched maternal

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:04

mental health services as well, which is more for people who experience tokophobia

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:08

or they've experienced pregnancy loss - tokophobia being a fear of an intense

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:12

fear of childbirth or and birth trauma.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:15

So I think representation is one thing, but I think also there needs to be more

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:19

of- I feel like there needs to be more of an effort within these services to

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:23

really think about specifically maybe pathways or what they are going to

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:28

do to support the black or the ethnic minority women, and families that come

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:34

through their system so that I'm, not everyone's just being treated equally

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:38

and everyone gets the same treatment.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:39

Because actually there is a difference and we can't ignore there is a

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:42

massive difference between being a black mum, a black family and

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:48

say a white family for example.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:49

It's not that, you know, Mental health doesn't discriminate whether you're

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:52

white, black or whoever you are.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:55

But I think definitely there needs to be more of an intention and

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:31:58

explicit intention as to what are we gonna do within these services?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:01

'Cause they are seeing black families come through.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:04

And so how, what are the adaptions that are being made?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:06

So I think on a service level that needs to be thought about, As well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:10

And I think the third thing I think is just, there just needs to

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:12

be more training really, I think.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:14

And more research about understanding the black experience as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:20

And there's been some research, but there's not a huge amount of it out there.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:23

And some of those research is dating back to 2008.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:26

I dunno how much research has really been done in recent years

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:29

around mental health specifically.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:31

I think there needs to be more research that there's more of an

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:33

understanding of the experiences.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:37

so that then that can also inform the training and the understanding

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:39

of how services are shaped, as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:42

Those are the things I say I would say, but I know it's not....

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:46

Yeah, they're not, they should be easily done, but I know that they're not because

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:50

there's lots of systemic and things to consider, you know, and I understand that.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:54

but it does need to be a priority.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:58

It does need to be a priority.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:32:59

And I wonder how much, that would also coincide that if the mental health aspect

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:03

and the health aspect, if they're being worked on, I believe they would have

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:07

knock on effects on these stats that we're seeing about maternal health outcomes and

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:12

maternal mental health outcomes as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:15

' Cause you can't separate the mind from the body.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:18

if somebody's gone in and had a really traumatic experience, they're gonna,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:21

that's gonna be held in their body, but that's also gonna be held in their,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:23

their mind and their psyche as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:26

So that kind of looking at things in a conjoined, more of a conjoined way,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:31

um, and just being better at listening-

VIKKI: 00:33:34

yeah.

- DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:34

actually hearing the experience.

- DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:35

But yeah, I don't know.

- DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:37

I hope things will change.

- DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:38

but yeah, I I can only do my bit, I suppose, which is what I'm trying to do.

- DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:44

And I hope you know more therapists, psychologists and things that are coming

- DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:47

up in the training wall, will specialise more in perinatal mental health, but

- DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:50

also, trainees who are of ethnic minority as well I think, 'cause when I was

- DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:54

doing my psychology training, perinatal mental health wasn't even mentioned

VIKKI: 00:33:58

Wow.

VIKKI: 00:33:59

At all.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:33:59

yeah, and I think it's quite important that it is

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:34:03

and it's seen as a potential career option, a potential area that you can

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:34:06

make a lot of difference in as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:34:09

Cause it's, yeah, it's quite niche, but I think it's quite, it's just cause it's

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:34:12

niche, but it's very important as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:34:14

I think it's fundamental.

VIKKI: 00:34:16

It's hugely important, as a human being, the most fundamental

VIKKI: 00:34:20

change you go through is becoming a parent and raising a human being.

VIKKI: 00:34:23

And, you know, when our children are, are suffering from a massive mental

VIKKI: 00:34:28

health crisis, one of the best things we can do is, is early intervention.

VIKKI: 00:34:34

And that's supporting the parents, which will support the children going forward.

VIKKI: 00:34:38

And also it's been proven, if I'm not mistaken, that if you.

VIKKI: 00:34:43

Intervene early or screen parents who may have emotional difficulties or complex

VIKKI: 00:34:49

feelings around, parenting, that it stops them progressing further down the line in

VIKKI: 00:34:55

terms of their own mental health issues.

VIKKI: 00:34:58

So there's, there's an economic argument.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:01

There, there is.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:02

There really is.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:03

There really is.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:05

Early intervention is key.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:06

It is because it's, when it's not dealt with or caught, it really does have

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:09

ramifications- it could be decades in the making, and that's the truth.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:14

I've worked with people who've been you know, sort of much older.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:17

They've got grown up children, but they're still, say for example, really haunted

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:21

by the traumatic birth that they had.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:22

And they feel like, obviously it's difficult to say, but they feel like the

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:26

mental health problems or difficulties that their grown up child is having,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:29

they've linked it back to that and it's like, goodness, was that even

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:33

seen as a traumatic birth back then?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:34

Or you know, what was done about it?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:36

I suppose that's also why I want to work in this area 'cause I think

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:39

it's such an opportune moment to kind of break certain cycles or

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:44

relay a different type of foundation.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:46

Yes.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:47

You can't guarantee everything's gonna be hunky dory, but at least it's about

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:50

giving that child the best chance.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:53

Cause they all grow up and maybe want to have their own children and and like

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:56

I said, I was talking about people who experience childhood trauma or difficult

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:35:59

childhood experiences like their parents.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:36:02

You know, things get passed on generation to generation as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:36:05

So I think it is an opportunity to rescript things, rewrite things

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:36:10

as well, as much as possible.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:36:12

So I think there's a lot of hope in working in this field as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:36:14

There's something quite hopeful I find about it as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:36:18

It could be an opportunity to change direction,

VIKKI: 00:36:20

And you know, small things can make a huge difference in

VIKKI: 00:36:23

terms of how people are spoken to.

VIKKI: 00:36:26

you know, even the words that are used during labour.

VIKKI: 00:36:29

and just want to make this point, and this is something that we

VIKKI: 00:36:33

cover in greater detail with Dr.

VIKKI: 00:36:34

Rebecca Moore, is that you don't need to have a medical emergency for

VIKKI: 00:36:40

your birth to be traumatic to you.

VIKKI: 00:36:42

And that if you feel traumatised from your birth, you have birth trauma.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:36:47

That's it.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:36:48

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:36:49

When I discovered that and that helped me, my God, so much

VIKKI: 00:36:53

in, in terms of, you know, I, I was feeling shameful at feeling

VIKKI: 00:36:57

traumatised by my birth experience.

VIKKI: 00:37:01

Those little things, you know, even just how you are treated.

VIKKI: 00:37:05

'Cause a lot of the people that I speak to and certainly in my own

VIKKI: 00:37:08

experience, if you are not validated or listened to, during the birth

VIKKI: 00:37:13

experience, that can have fundamental

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:37:17

It really can.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:37:18

But that, I think that's the thing is that I don't think, and I know sometimes

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:37:21

people don't mean to do it, but that sense of being invalidated is highly

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:37:26

traumatising - highly traumatising.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:37:28

Not just in the context of a birth experience where you, talked about

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:37:31

feeling vulnerable, like you are at your most, yeah vulnerable,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:37:34

I can't think of any other word.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:37:35

And then to feel sidelined or erased out of the whole experience.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:37:39

On a very deep level that is traumatic.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:37:42

And the reason I say that is because, even thinking back at the work I do with

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:37:47

people who've had difficult childhood experiences, one of the running themes

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:37:52

about people who then end up struggling with trauma and may develop, um, I

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:37:56

mean these are different situations.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:37:57

I'm not talking necessarily, um, birth related, but PTSD or complex

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:02

PTSD, that sense of invalidation.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:05

Emotional invalidation, their sense of self being invalidated because

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:10

of the environment that we're going is inherently traumatic.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:14

So I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I completely agree with you.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:16

Invalidating people at its core is a traumatic, is a traumatising

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:21

thing to do to someone.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:22

Yes, people will respond differently to it, but I guess what I'm trying to

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:25

say is that it cuts deep, it really does cut very deep because it cuts

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:30

the core of your being to feel like you've been erased, like you don't

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:34

matter, almost like you don't exist is a very, very, very painful thing on

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:38

a psychological level to experience.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:41

And even relationships when we feel our partner's not validating

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:44

us or invalidating, or we feel dismissed, we find it painful.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:47

You know, it's difficult.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:48

So how much more in a situation where you are giving birth and you want

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:52

to feel safe and you want to feel contained, and then you feel like

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:55

you've just been completely bypassed by the people who are caring for you.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:38:59

So I completely agree.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:00

it's completely subjective as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:02

If you found it traumatic, it is traumatic.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:04

Your experience is valid.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:05

You don't need somebody else to give you a diagnosis or tell you, "oh,

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:09

you meet the threshold for this".

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:10

It's just trust your experience.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:11

If that's what it felt like for you, then that's what it was.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:14

And I think it's about honoring that and thinking, what.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:17

How do you get help or how do you get supported through it?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:21

So not fighting with whether or not you should be feeling what you're

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:24

feeling because you are feeling it anyway, regardless of whether

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:26

you acknowledge it or you don't.

VIKKI: 00:39:28

Not feeling shame

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:30

Yeah,

VIKKI: 00:39:31

feeling that.

VIKKI: 00:39:32

So I'll obviously put a link to your website in the show notes, but for

VIKKI: 00:39:37

anybody who would like to reach out to you, how do they get in touch?

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:42

Yeah, so you can find me on Instagram at London Perinatal Wellness.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:47

I also have a website, www.dronabanjo.com.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:51

yeah, those are the main ways, and yeah, you'll find my sort of email

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:53

address on my website as well.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:55

so I won't read that out now.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:57

but yeah, those are the main ways.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:39:58

you can contact me, send me a DM or send me an email or, fill in

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:40:01

the contact form on my website.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:40:03

So yeah,

VIKKI: 00:40:04

Fabulous.

VIKKI: 00:40:04

Thank you so much for being a guest today.

VIKKI: 00:40:06

It's been such an engaging conversation and yeah, it's been a joy

VIKKI: 00:40:10

speaking to you and I'm sure hugely reassuring to a lot of listeners.

VIKKI: 00:40:15

So thank you very much and, we'll speak soon.

VIKKI: 00:40:18

Thank you.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:40:19

Okay then Have a lovely day,

VIKKI: 00:40:20

And you Bye-bye.

DR ORIN ONABANJO: 00:40:22

Bye.

VIKKI: 00:40:23

If you've enjoyed this episode of Blue MumDays, please like and subscribe.

VIKKI: 00:40:28

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VIKKI: 00:40:33

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